Is anyone going to do a signal to noise ratio test?

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Duke M.

Duke M.

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Its very exciting that people are finally receiving the first batches of their cameras.

Is any one with a scope, who's receiving one of the first cameras, willing to do a test? And post the results? (All cameras have noise. I'd like to see where it falls in the spectrum.)

How about a real resolution test on a production camera so we can finally see that?
 
Perhaps we can list exactly what type of tests we'd like to see from the first cameras released, and with what type of control situation.
 
Someone asked Jan about S/N on the AF in the recent Boston seminar, and she did a bit of an artful dodge, it seemed to me. Perhaps Panasonic has not made that spec known yet, but it seems doubtful they haven't tested it officially.
 
dcarstens said:
Perhaps we can list exactly what type of tests we'd like to see from the first cameras released, and with what type of control situation.
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I asked that exact same question in another thread. I think it's a great idea.

I hope to have an AF100 on hand shortly and would be happy, time permitting, to help complete any tests people might like to see. DVXuser has been very good to me and I'd be happy to return the favour, even if it means putting up with the occasional angry mob.

I'd also be happy to find a day and make the camera available for fellow Montreal-area DVXusers who'd like to come and play with it - or try some of their lenses and/or mounts on it.
 
No sir, I did not say anything about pride. You're right, it has nothing to do with pride. It's about marketing. If the S/N ratio were something they could tout as a selling point, they would. End of subject.
 
No, it is not "the end of the subject".

Barry stated that Panasonic DOES NOT give out the SN ratios on any of it's AG products.
 
mcgeedigital said:
No, it is not "the end of the subject".

Barry stated that Panasonic DOES NOT give out the SN ratios on any of it's AG products.
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Uh huh. I read that too. And I also heard Jan's response to the question of S/N ratio with the AF100 in a recent meeting in Boston, and she did not say "we don't give out that number." She said, essentially,"I don't think we've seen that number yet. It may be in the recent manual or white papers." She then changed the subject. And why do you suppose that is, if you were to apply some critical thinking to the question? Do you believe that if their signal to noise ratio on the AG line of products were a strong point of this line of products, they would publish those numbers? Of course they would. Now that doesn't make them bad products. I am eagerly awaiting my AF100, and I am willing to accept that some other products, maybe in a different class, have S/N numbers that their manufacturers eagerly list in brochures and marketing materials. If Panny felt it's S/N for this camera would help sell it, they would tell you. If their S/N were superior, and they didn't publicize it, that would be a very strange and marketing oversight.
 
Panasonic does not publish S/N specification. They do have a MOJO number though... Its is that je-ne-sais-kwa that cannot be measured with a scope.... you feel it when you watch the footage. Other manufacturers publish noise data. But they have low mojo.

There was a time when signal/noise was a critical factor in comparing different cameras. I think today, with everything being digital, it is much less important.

Compare any footage you might shoot today with an HVX camera with a camera from 10-15 years ago.... Yeah you might say the HVX is noisier than the Sony broadcast 2/3" BVW camera....

But you would still prefer to shoot your next project with the HVX, because of the look.

Who cares what the S/N is? These cameras now blow away anything made more than six minutes ago.

Be happy!
 
bhdfield said:
I'm thinking that if the AF100 s/n ratio were a number Panasonic were particularly proud of, we would probably know it by now. Just a hunch.
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Your hunch is wrong. They have never, ever published a s/n ratio for any AG-series product.

And Panasonic is outrageously proud of the AF100. And based on what we got from "A Verse Before Dying" ... they should be.
 
Billygoat said:
And why do you suppose that is, if you were to apply some critical thinking to the question?
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Look -- hunting for conspiracy theories is just going to spread ill will. They do not publish it. They never have. Go find an example of any AG-series product. I dare you.

I have actually seen the S/N ratio of the HPX370, and it was very good, and in fact better than one of their competitors. I asked the japanese factory representatives when they were going to publish it, and they said "do not repeat this number, we don't publish these numbers on AG products."

I don't understand why. I would think it would be a huge selling point. But: that is the way it is. I do not care whether you believe it or not; the truth is not dependent on whether someone chooses to believe it.

If their S/N were superior, and they didn't publicize it, that would be a very strange and marketing oversight.
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Strange indeed, and I can absolutely verify for you that I have seen this happen. And all I can say is: they sell their products their way, and whether that makes sense to us or not, is largely irrelevant. It's how they do what they do.
 
Well, if I were a manufacturer that had a line of cameras that could barely make a 50db SN, I wouldn't call it out either. Having said that, noiseless footage is lifeless and missing that elusive mojo. 16 or 35mm film would be phony without grain(and often is in DVD and Blu Ray mastering). I'm very happy the AF100 offers -6db, just in case lighting allows and noise is unwanted by a client. Worked on a shoot yesterday that had a GH2, it was quieter at ASA 800 than our HPX170 at 0db. Not that a GH2 will look like an AF100.
 
Well, if the S/N ratio of the HPX371 is impressive, the artefacting that results from the in-camera noise reduction certainly isn't! I have never been so disappointed in a camera.

Anyway, I'd be happy to do a test as soon as our camera arrives. The noise on Leo's ProRes files was odd (clearly visible on our grade one monitors and Tektronix scopes) and noise on the AF will be one of the first things we look at before we unleash the new beast on paying jobs!
 
I was going through some older projects that was shot on film and it's amazing how much grain is visible - but I loved it! For fun I ran it through denoiser software for kicks. It was definitely a different vibe and a little lifeless.

Dino said:
Well, if I were a manufacturer that had a line of cameras that could barely make a 50db SN, I wouldn't call it out either. Having said that, noiseless footage is lifeless and missing that elusive mojo. 16 or 35mm film would be phony without grain(and often is in DVD and Blu Ray mastering). I'm very happy the AF100 offers -6db, just in case lighting allows and noise is unwanted by a client. Worked on a shoot yesterday that had a GH2, it was quieter at ASA 800 than our HPX170 at 0db. Not that a GH2 will look like an AF100.
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Barry_Green said:
Look -- hunting for conspiracy theories is just going to spread ill will. They do not publish it. They never have. Go find an example of any AG-series product. I dare you.

I have actually seen the S/N ratio of the HPX370, and it was very good, and in fact better than one of their competitors. I asked the japanese factory representatives when they were going to publish it, and they said "do not repeat this number, we don't publish these numbers on AG products."

I don't understand why. I would think it would be a huge selling point. But: that is the way it is. I do not care whether you believe it or not; the truth is not dependent on whether someone chooses to believe it.


Strange indeed, and I can absolutely verify for you that I have seen this happen. And all I can say is: they sell their products their way, and whether that makes sense to us or not, is largely irrelevant. It's how they do what they do.
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Well I wouldn't call it a conspiracy theory. But their handling of S/N data is a bit odd, as I think we both can agree, if it is so good. If your information is correct, I'm surprised by Jan's response to the S/N ratio question in Boston, because she didn't say anything like what you're saying. So she may have the same info you have, but she said, in a nutshell, that she has not yet seen that information. I suppose we can take that at face value. But having done video production marketing work for corporations in the past, they tend to be very strict and specific about what information their employees discuss, and how.

All that said, this point is being driven to the ground. The camera is what it is: A very cost effective, excellent product for the money, that used properly will yield results unprecedented at its price-point. But it is not a $5000 Alexa, as Jan herself said at that meeting.
 
Billygoat said:
Well I wouldn't call it a conspiracy theory. But their handling of S/N data is a bit odd, as I think we both can agree, if it is so good. If your information is correct, I'm surprised by Jan's response to the S/N ratio question in Boston, because she didn't say anything like what you're saying. So she may have the same info you have, but she said, in a nutshell, that she has not yet seen that information. I suppose we can take that at face value. But having done video production marketing work for corporations in the past, they tend to be very strict and specific about what information their employees discuss, and how.

All that said, this point is being driven to the ground. The camera is what it is: A very cost effective, excellent product for the money, that used properly will yield results unprecedented at its price-point. But it is not a $5000 Alexa, as Jan herself said at that meeting.
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Here is my guess, and it is entirely speculation; Panasonic has probably had poor S/N in some of the past AG series camera's such as the original HVX200 so they decided to keep those numbers internal. Now the camera's are much cleaner but that protocol still exists. That said I believe it's probably a non issue these days. I'm sure the AF100 will be a great camera to shoot with, and I can't wait to get mine.
 
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