Is an external recorder even worth it?

mainstreetprod

mainstreetprod

Veteran
I'm shooting a straight to DVD feature starting August 2 with an out of state scene (although the bulk of the shooting starts Sept. 1) No desire to spend 10K on the Sony solution, so the CD is the only 4K option that might work for me. Since it's listed on B & H as starting to ship on August 15, that doesn't work either. I've considered external recorders so I can shoot in 4:2:2 such as Ninja, but if the bulk of the improvement is only in faster moving scenes, foliage, etc, it doesn't seem worth it. I'm not doing green screen or cropping. Should I just be satisfied with shooting AVCHD and forget about all the external gadgets?
 
mainstreetprod said:
I'm shooting a straight to DVD feature starting August 2 with an out of state scene (although the bulk of the shooting starts Sept. 1) No desire to spend 10K on the Sony solution, so the CD is the only 4K option that might work for me. Since it's listed on B & H as starting to ship on August 15, that doesn't work either. I've considered external recorders so I can shoot in 4:2:2 such as Ninja, but if the bulk of the improvement is only in faster moving scenes, foliage, etc, it doesn't seem worth it. I'm not doing green screen or cropping. Should I just be satisfied with shooting AVCHD and forget about all the external gadgets?
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Why do you tnink about 10K for Sony solution, if you can get this set from RENTAL department or store? Sony R5 recorder with 2 X 512GB SSD and Sony Card reader avalable in Adorama for $300 per weekend .. So - when Sony HXR-IFR5 will be availabe it maybe cost $50-$100 more for the set.. Not a big deal for real 4K RAW option :)
 
If we were shooting over a short period that would work fine- but we're shooting over about 12 weeks. 12 x $400 = almost $5000. More than buying the 7Q!
 
mainstreetprod said:
If we were shooting over a short period that would work fine- but we're shooting over about 12 weeks. 12 x $400 = almost $5000. More than buying the 7Q!
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WAW ! ... you are lacky :) ... is it your "paid project" .. or you gonna shoot "for free" ? I mean - if there is a group of people involved, they can be able to afford Sony RAW set .. of at list they have a time to make short trailer about this film and try to get some money from KickStarter - http://www.kickstarter.com/ .. just do NOT ask there money "for equipment" ! .. only for the project .... :) But, if you don't want 4K RAW - do NOT play with any external gadgets! .. on 8bit they all no really better than AVCHD !
 
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No, it's our own self financed project. I don't see any pressing need to go 4K since it will probably never see the big screen and almost no one has a way to view 4K at home anyway. I checked out a huge 4K TV at Best Buy recently and was unimpressed - to me, it didn't look any better than the much cheaper 1080P sets nearby. I got an FS700 for it's super high frame rates, not 4K ability. I'm starting to wonder if the whole 4K thing isn't just a way for the manufacturers to sell overpriced acquisition and display equipment.

Thanks for the tip about external recorders. After a lot of research, it's pretty obvious to me the improvement over AVCHD would be minimal.
 
Check out your rental house's rental rates.

Generally,

Flat daily rate.
Weekend = 1 day
1 week = 3 days rental
1 month = 2 weeks rental


Every place is a bit different, but your 12 weeks may not actually cost that much
 
A couple of years ago I shot an independent movie using the FS100 with the stock codec. The director said the Blu-Ray projected on a 25' screen looked fantastic.
 
"Straight to DVD feature..."
I believe you will get wonderful results for a project like that with this camera "as is" and you have rid yourself of all the extra gear, huge file sizes etc.
Go for it!
 
Will you be running any post on the files beyond an edit? If so then yes 422 is worth it, if not then you might be able to get away with it. The cost of a BM Shuttle though is very little and offers some safety in the sense of dual recording. By post - noise reduction, grading, vfx work etc,.

cheers
paul
 
mainstreetprod said:
..... I checked out a huge 4K TV at Best Buy recently and was unimpressed - to me, it didn't look any better than the much cheaper 1080P sets nearby.....
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.. Hmm sorry, are you sure about Best Buy store show you REAL 4K content on 4K TV ?? .... I asking you, because people talk a lot about "how much better than HD 4K is" .. take a look at the end of this video - 4K from FS-700 https://vimeo.com/69884277 :)
 
I find it somewhat odd that so many people get hooked on the concept of a need for an external recorder. I mean, the thinking is that they get better images than with the native AVCHD codec, which is not only good, but, fairly robust considering it's only 8 bit. Going to an 8-bit external recorder provides no significant gains. The best to be hoped for is reduced transcode times in post.

If a noticeable improvement is wanted in image quality, the single biggest increase can be achieved by making sure accurate focus is achieved. If shooting with a Sony autofocus lens, the issue is arguable. But, when shooting with a 3rd party lens, the small on-board LCD screen is much too small to get accurate focus. And when shooting HD or, for that matter, 2k or 4k, the focus requirements get pretty critical. To this end, a really good external monitor is the single best investment you can make. If it happens to have a recorder built in, that's icing on the capture cake.
 
cuervo said:
I find it somewhat odd that so many people get hooked on the concept of a need for an external recorder. I mean, the thinking is that they get better images than with the native AVCHD codec, which is not only good, but, fairly robust considering it's only 8 bit. Going to an 8-bit external recorder provides no significant gains. The best to be hoped for is reduced transcode times in post.
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Totally depends what you're doing with the footage afterwards. The compression and noise reduction in AVCHD will remove subtle details, reflections and luma differences. It will turn movement in detailed areas into mush and also (IMHO) produce more strobing as the VBR codec works to reduce detail on pans. However if you're just going to cut the footage that's fine.

If, however, you want to do your own noise reduction, you want to pull keys (for grading or other work) then the benefit of a lightly compressed 422 source will very quickly become apparent in your work.

cheers
paul
 
paulcurtis said:
Will you be running any post on the files beyond an edit? If so then yes 422 is worth it, if not then you might be able to get away with it. The cost of a BM Shuttle though is very little and offers some safety in the sense of dual recording. By post - noise reduction, grading, vfx work etc,.

That is exactly the reason I was considering en external recorder - because of it supposedly "falling apart in the grade". So I ran some tests- shot a variety of footage and applied some fairly drastic grades from Magic Bullet. I didn't see any issues with the grade at all. If anyone is interested, I'll be glad to post those results. I also asked a colorist at a large post house about the issue. They had not run into problems grading AVCHD in post.

It will turn movement in detailed areas into mush and also (IMHO) produce more strobing as the VBR codec works to reduce detail on pans. However if you're just going to cut the footage that's fine.

I did run into that issue on the last feature with the AF100. Some problems with foliage when the camera was moving, especially after encoded to DVD (but that varied a lot depending on the encoding settings). The AVCHD in the Sony seems less affected in the shots I've done so far.
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SergeSmArt said:
.. Hmm sorry, are you sure about Best Buy store show you REAL 4K content on 4K TV ?? .... I asking you, because people talk a lot about "how much better than HD 4K is" .. take a look at the end of this video - 4K from FS-700 https://vimeo.com/69884277 :)
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That video looks great and is the main reason I was even considering 4K. Much of the video at Best Buy was nighttime shots of dancing fountains- thin streams of light in the distance. Pretty hard to judge. There was a short daytime scene of an action movie. The faces of the actors had what looked like an exaggerated film grain, like the 4K was blowing it up. I can't imagine they would shoot a 4K sample on film though.
 
paulcurtis said:
Will you be running any post on the files beyond an edit? If so then yes 422 is worth it, if not then you might be able to get away with it. The cost of a BM Shuttle though is very little and offers some safety in the sense of dual recording. By post - noise reduction, grading, vfx work etc,.

cheers
paul
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Andrew Luczenczyn said:
Check out your rental house's rental rates.

Generally,

Flat daily rate.
Weekend = 1 day
1 week = 3 days rental
1 month = 2 weeks rental


Every place is a bit different, but your 12 weeks may not actually cost that much
Click to expand...


Sounds like that's worth checking into. Nearly had a DP who got a big discount on rentals, but he fell through.
 
cuervo said:
I find it somewhat odd that so many people get hooked on the concept of a need for an external recorder. I mean, the thinking is that they get better images than with the native AVCHD codec, which is not only good, but, fairly robust considering it's only 8 bit. Going to an 8-bit external recorder provides no significant gains. The best to be hoped for is reduced transcode times in post.

If a noticeable improvement is wanted in image quality, the single biggest increase can be achieved by making sure accurate focus is achieved. If shooting with a Sony autofocus lens, the issue is arguable. But, when shooting with a 3rd party lens, the small on-board LCD screen is much too small to get accurate focus. And when shooting HD or, for that matter, 2k or 4k, the focus requirements get pretty critical. To this end, a really good external monitor is the single best investment you can make. If it happens to have a recorder built in, that's icing on the capture cake.
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Agreed. I have a 7" monitor with focus assist (even has a remote trigger for it) that I'll be using. When shooting interiors, I have a 24" consumer 1080P monitor my DP will be using to double check focus.

Also, I've invested in some great stills lenses that tend to snap into focus a lot easier than the focus by wire Sony lenses.
 
mainstreetprod said:
That is exactly the reason I was considering en external recorder - because of it supposedly "falling apart in the grade". So I ran some tests- shot a variety of footage and applied some fairly drastic grades from Magic Bullet. I didn't see any issues with the grade at all. If anyone is interested, I'll be glad to post those results. I also asked a colorist at a large post house about the issue. They had not run into problems grading AVCHD in post.
Click to expand...

Depends on what you're doing. MB Looks is very much an overall colour balance tool which will be fine. But if you're qualifying areas for detailed secondary correction - say a coloured detailed area - then the camera moves, all that texture is suddenly compressed and quite often you'll loose the key. You can argue that with sufficient blur it's not that important but grading compressed footage can sometimes take longer when working around individual troublesome situations.

I can also see fine detail being lost or subtle tonal changes not being in the AVC version. Shadows especially are the first to get compressed, so if you're doing any work that reaching into those shadows the AVC will not work as well.

For tracking purposes, especially 3D camera tracks, maintaining detail during movement can make for a better track.

For greenscreen work it's very important too.

As i said before it very much depends on what you're doing, but for the small extra cost of running to an external recorder perhaps it would be worth it.

cheers
Paul
 
paulcurtis said:
Totally depends what you're doing with the footage afterwards. The compression and noise reduction in AVCHD will remove subtle details, reflections and luma differences. It will turn movement in detailed areas into mush and also (IMHO) produce more strobing as the VBR codec works to reduce detail on pans. However if you're just going to cut the footage that's fine.

If, however, you want to do your own noise reduction, you want to pull keys (for grading or other work) then the benefit of a lightly compressed 422 source will very quickly become apparent in your work.

cheers
paul
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I'm pretty much in agreement with you, Paul. I will, however, make a few observations of my own. Most definitely, 4-2-2 is a huge improvement when it comes to grading. I had forgotten that small fact that when using an external recorder, the FS700 outputs 422. So, I agree that the color grading process tends to be more robust. Having said this, however, I've run some pretty extensive tests to compare the native FS700 AVCHD footage against both 100mbps mpeg2(C-D Nanoflash) and ProRes422 HD (S-D Pix240i). In my tests, I compared both static shots and whip pans. The native AVCHD footage stands up extremely well to full frame motion shots. Noise reduction with the MPEG2 codec is somewhat problemmatic because of the quantization size, so denoised MPEG2 footage actually looks worse than native AVCHD footage. But, the biggest point I want to make is that the compression of the AVCHD codec stands up extremely well to full frame motion.
 
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