IR Problem Costs Thousands
- Thread starter asafb
- Start date
- Status
Bassman2003
Veteran
I would have to disagree on that thought.
We all want great colors but you are speaking of this as an oversight or mistake where I think it is a pricepoint/technical choice.
For $6,000 the camera offers full raster with great color & an SDI port.
If they spent the effort to increase the IR capability either the price would have to go up or the camera might lose some light gathering ability.
I just can not take the stand like the Sony engineers just "missed it" and some end users on an internet forum are going to discover the mistake.
You say to Sony to "get it right". Well then what do you say to Panasonic about the HPX-500? What about the RED folks?
This issue might be a bit more involved than you are portaying it to be...
And you need to pay more than $6,000 for perfection or closer to it.
We all want great colors but you are speaking of this as an oversight or mistake where I think it is a pricepoint/technical choice.
For $6,000 the camera offers full raster with great color & an SDI port.
If they spent the effort to increase the IR capability either the price would have to go up or the camera might lose some light gathering ability.
I just can not take the stand like the Sony engineers just "missed it" and some end users on an internet forum are going to discover the mistake.
You say to Sony to "get it right". Well then what do you say to Panasonic about the HPX-500? What about the RED folks?
This issue might be a bit more involved than you are portaying it to be...
And you need to pay more than $6,000 for perfection or closer to it.
GuyB
Well-known member
An increased price to cover the ability to capture black reliably is a price we are all clearly willing to pay, we are doing it with the rather expensive purchase of these IR filters.
If there was a filter I could put on my camera that fixed the IR but didn't introduce a bit of green at wide I would already have one. If by around Septemeber there still isn't one that works like this I will get one that does have the green issue.
Thats fine for EX1 users with a fixed lens, but what about EX3 users? Do you have to buy a filter for all your lens?
The problem really needs to be dealt with in camera, not on lens, especially with the more to so many more removable lens designs.
I'd even accept a new filter wheel for IR filtering on/off etc but how can we accept that we are getting a 'better' image when there is often such a problem visible? How is this 'better'? I am more worried about the future of the cameras in our industry if all our cameras start doing this, what a backwards step.
If there was a filter I could put on my camera that fixed the IR but didn't introduce a bit of green at wide I would already have one. If by around Septemeber there still isn't one that works like this I will get one that does have the green issue.
Thats fine for EX1 users with a fixed lens, but what about EX3 users? Do you have to buy a filter for all your lens?
The problem really needs to be dealt with in camera, not on lens, especially with the more to so many more removable lens designs.
I'd even accept a new filter wheel for IR filtering on/off etc but how can we accept that we are getting a 'better' image when there is often such a problem visible? How is this 'better'? I am more worried about the future of the cameras in our industry if all our cameras start doing this, what a backwards step.
EIREHotspur
Well-known member
Have the Full Size XD Cams got this IR issue?
I am going to refuse to work with people wearing dark suits from here on out. Frig It....I am going to refuse concerts just in case too.
I am going to refuse to work with people wearing dark suits from here on out. Frig It....I am going to refuse concerts just in case too.
William_Robinette
Shallow Member
Yes, but it is something I know I can live with and I shoot a lot of stage and concert videos with them. It isn't as bad as the EX-1 or RED stuff I have seen.
basspig
Veteran
Well apparently even $125,000 is not enough to fix it, because the higher end F series have the problem, too.
basspig
Veteran
Now you know why the series was given an "F".
I give you my Archie Bunker-style, "Veeeery funny..."
GuyB
Well-known member
Lets put this CMOS thing to bed because I don't buy it as a problem inherent with CMOS. Below are two images, one taken from my D3 still camera and one taken from my EX1 video camera. BOTH cameras use CMOS sensors.
So what is it about the EX1 that makes for an acceptable image?
D3 Image
Same bridal party, same material, same sun and you can even see in general how much warmer the D3 image is in general due to the white balance & its vivid colour settings yet still both the guys and the girls dress's are black as they should be. In the video, the girls dress's look brown throughout the WHOLE wedding.
So what is it about the EX1 that makes for an acceptable image?
D3 Image
Same bridal party, same material, same sun and you can even see in general how much warmer the D3 image is in general due to the white balance & its vivid colour settings yet still both the guys and the girls dress's are black as they should be. In the video, the girls dress's look brown throughout the WHOLE wedding.
basspig
Veteran
Guy, the EX image looks to be improperly white-balanced. I have found that how I set my white balance can make the difference between your two images above. I don't find the skin tones on the bottom picture to be appealing--they are too orange and unnatural. And the top image looks like the color temp is too cold.
But your point about the IR problem is correct. CCDs and CMOS imagers can both respond in the IR range. In fact, tube cameras respond to IR nicely. Back in the 70s, I used a tube camera to aid me in positioning a scanning IR laser beam for aligning a film inspection system application. Most imager devices respond to IR.
But your point about the IR problem is correct. CCDs and CMOS imagers can both respond in the IR range. In fact, tube cameras respond to IR nicely. Back in the 70s, I used a tube camera to aid me in positioning a scanning IR laser beam for aligning a film inspection system application. Most imager devices respond to IR.
Guy
To some degree you will find variation in EVERY camera out there. Even within a specific camera you can find variation. Throughout the 90's, Sony Betacam cameras from the factory had variations from camera to camera. Not a good thing but very common anyway.
Filmstocks have the same problem, to a lesser degree. When shooting a scene with multiple cameras you need to try to get the same cut number for all the filmstock. There is a sticker on the back of the can that is the cut number. Need to try to match that when possible. This is in addition to matching the batch number which is a broader range and must be the same.
I know an owner of a Red camera and he has seen no IR contamination at all, yet many have posted pictures of IR contamination with Red cameras.
To some degree you will find variation in EVERY camera out there. Even within a specific camera you can find variation. Throughout the 90's, Sony Betacam cameras from the factory had variations from camera to camera. Not a good thing but very common anyway.
Filmstocks have the same problem, to a lesser degree. When shooting a scene with multiple cameras you need to try to get the same cut number for all the filmstock. There is a sticker on the back of the can that is the cut number. Need to try to match that when possible. This is in addition to matching the batch number which is a broader range and must be the same.
I know an owner of a Red camera and he has seen no IR contamination at all, yet many have posted pictures of IR contamination with Red cameras.
DavidNJ
Carbonite Member
There is an EX1/5DM2 comparison on vimeo where the EX1 is too cold and the 5DM2 very warm. This should be adjustable with white balance or other color curve settings. I've gotten in the habit of carrying the small WhiBal 18% gray card around my neck and a bigger one in my pocket. Both setting the white balance and creating a reference for post.
GuyB
Well-known member
yea, the EX1 was probably on a preset with the sun going in and out but the whites aren't too far off, and if anything being a bit cold, removing more blue to white balance would make the problem appear worse... The D3 image was actually also with fill flash which is why the skin tones look so warm. It is quite common for this look with Nikon and fill flash but the BLACKS are BLACK and consistently so unlike the EX where the same blacks vary in colour depending on the specific material (the lapels are brown on the black suite, looks stupid) & the changing colours between the groomsmen looks like they couldn't colour co-ordinate what the fellas would wear...
I have thousands of other frames from this wedding with the same problem... I can only hope they don't complain.
I have thousands of other frames from this wedding with the same problem... I can only hope they don't complain.
Bassman2003
Veteran
Hey Guy,
I wouldn't think fill flash would warm the color so much outside unless it was very overcast and the temperature was 7-8000k. If anything I think fill flash would cool the colors especially if you were later in the day and the sun was going down.
Do you shoot raw with your D3?
I have been using the Whibal card for a while now with my 5D and it is really a great tool for proper color.
As far as the EX goes, I think you should get the filter. I have been sceptical of the EX and the need for a filter, but it really does help.
Last edited:
GuyB
Well-known member
I wasn't so interested in the skin tones in this sample etc, just more to show that the D3 with a CMOS sensor is not effected by IR contamination (yes I shot RAW so have a lot of flexibility for adjusting that image later). In that adjusted image frisco, to me, the blacks now show a tint of bluey green but at least all the black shows the same... In my EX1 image, the blacks should all be black, or at least all the same colour off black, but instead we have a clear case of black suites with brown lapels on the boys (suddenly one male is wearing brown pants) with muddy brown dress's on the girls. No image wide colour correction is going to fix that.
PS: Here is a colour corrected version, manual marquee white balance on the table cloth and dress
PS: Here is a colour corrected version, manual marquee white balance on the table cloth and dress
Last edited:
Hey GuyB,
Well all i can tell you is I share your frustration, and as you know, unless someone is going to be interested in doing a class-action lawsuit against Sony, Sony will obviously do absolutely nothing. Someone has to be the "Squeaky wheel".
I'm not sure why people like mico and bassman are OK with this problem and why we should accept this, i mean nothing personal guys, but think about it : maybe when they are hired to shoot a $20,000 project and the client screams back at them and tells them why is this all brown and wants a complete refund they will start to care..... -- obviously nobody cares unless it affects THEM....
Because I don't own the camera it would be extremely difficult for me - my client as i mentioned before does not have the time or resources to start a CAL; but it would be interesting to see how many signatures we could get from EX1/3 owners for Sony to fix this problem in the camera; I.E. to RECALL the cameras and provide a firmware fix for this.
With regards to OTHER manufacturers that have this issue they are ALL RESPONSIBLE!!!!!! And, they should INFORM the customers who spent thousands of dollars on their products HOW to DEAL with this issue - they should provide a filter or something in the camera, that's all I'm saying people.
Asaf
Well all i can tell you is I share your frustration, and as you know, unless someone is going to be interested in doing a class-action lawsuit against Sony, Sony will obviously do absolutely nothing. Someone has to be the "Squeaky wheel".
I'm not sure why people like mico and bassman are OK with this problem and why we should accept this, i mean nothing personal guys, but think about it : maybe when they are hired to shoot a $20,000 project and the client screams back at them and tells them why is this all brown and wants a complete refund they will start to care..... -- obviously nobody cares unless it affects THEM....
Because I don't own the camera it would be extremely difficult for me - my client as i mentioned before does not have the time or resources to start a CAL; but it would be interesting to see how many signatures we could get from EX1/3 owners for Sony to fix this problem in the camera; I.E. to RECALL the cameras and provide a firmware fix for this.
With regards to OTHER manufacturers that have this issue they are ALL RESPONSIBLE!!!!!! And, they should INFORM the customers who spent thousands of dollars on their products HOW to DEAL with this issue - they should provide a filter or something in the camera, that's all I'm saying people.
Asaf
- Status