IR Problem Costs Thousands

[Buck Forester]

This is a defect. PERIOD. Sony is responsible, and shame on them...

asafb, did you not read the article on IR problems with multiple brands of cameras?

Again, from the article:

"We have noticed that many cameras see that shirt as a reddish-brown, especially when ND filters are used (as they were in the outdoor shots in the three-camera comparison, to get all the lenses opened to T2.8).:

"Quick off-the-monitor shots from both the RED and a Varicam that Videofax’s Jim Rolin set up for us confirmed that (a) the RED saw Tim’s shirt as blue while the Varicam (like other video cameras) saw it as being reddish-purple, and (b) the RED’s monitor output exaggerated the green-magenta axis."


"The Varicam reacted pretty the same way as the EX1 (as did both the HVX200 and the F23 in previous tests), seeing Tim’s shirt as red/purple/brown. The 486 filter tamed the Varicam’s color, making the shirt neutral, just as effectively as it did on the EX1."

How is THAT only a Sony "defect" problem? I'm all ears.

If anyone thinks a possible class-action lawsuit against Sony would help, let me know.

Good luck with that... might wanna sue RED too, and Panasonic while you're at it.

With regards about doing homework, I research this camera to death, and in nothing of the manual or from Sony is there a WARNING about possible INACCURATE COLORS shooting in SPECIFIC conditions - I had no idea about this problem and neither my video rental company.

I know you're frustrated, and I feel your pain, but not your blame. I knew about the IR problem after spending an hour in this forum and the 'other' forum. I never knew these forums existed, I found this place while researching the HVX200 and the Sony EX1, and this is a well documented issue, as is rolling shutter with CMOS and vertical smear with CCD. A rental house should know the 'issues' of each camera, they're in the business of video cameras, especially one as known as this one. I chose the EX1 knowing about IR and rolling shutter issues because I won't be shooting weddings where flashes might cause a concern, or whip pans, or people wearing black clothing under tungsten lighting. I knew these were issues with the camera (as well as with other cameras too, some worse than others). You can obviously approach this as you wish, but I can assure you that you will save yourself a LOT of frustration and fruitless labor by trying to find someone who is 'financially responsible' for how a video camera reads blacks under certain conditions where infrared affects the subject. I'm just sayin'.

 

[asafb]

Hi

Hi

Hey there, I have to respectfully disagree with you, why do I need to go to a forum to check for a camera problem - when you purchase a camera, it's job is to render proper colors, otherwise to me it's a defect. If I'm shooting a piano recital, and I see reds around his jacket, who do you think is responsible? It's a very simple question. I had all my settings set to PRESET, default from the camera's settings.

And by the way, I would have had no time to fix this problem even if I did see it on a monitor. My client already booked the hall, the location, booked the audio engineer, booked my time, so we were basically out of luck regardless. Obviously these red problems were not so noticable on the viewfinder; i even had a component out to a Sony monitor and I didn't notice it so much, only when I downloaded it to my computer did i fully see how bad it was......

it's not about getting money, or going to court, since I'm one end user versus the big guys lol.... I just want the manufacturer to ADMIT they have a CAMERA FLAW and tell me what I SHOULD DO.

The video rental company was unaware of this issue when they rented out the cameras, and they feel my pain too, but they are not responsible. The manufacturer is responsible. Just like the company who sold peanut butter knowing it was TAINTED and then people died. So you're going to tell me it's the guy who ate the peanute butter who is now dead, it's his fault? come on dude... think about it

 

[asafb]

and..

and..

furthermore, yes, of course once I started to see these crazy reds then i went to the forums and when i found out about this problem i had a fit, i was like oh my gosh sony didn't tell me about this????? or any of it's thousands of ex owners?????? Why not mention this issue in the box, or say, "Warning! if you shoot indoors you might get some red, but we have a filter that fixes the problem not to worry"

-- that's all i'm saying man, nothing personal

I can assure you there is no way I will ever rent or own the EX cameras, I'll probably go with the new HPX300 from Panasonic, tests revealed it does not have this issue. Irest my case

 

[asafb]

....

....

and how can I possibly know every single problem a new camera has? it's impossible

 

[Buck Forester]

asafb, no worries, I'm just saying this is not solely unique to Sony. The EX1 has this problem more severely than other cameras, but IR issues with video is not unique to the EX1 or Sony.

why do I need to go to a forum to check for a camera problem - when you purchase a camera, it's job is to render proper colors, otherwise to me it's a defect.

When you purchase a camera, it's job is to also render motion correctly, right? Well, depending on the camera you buy, you may have different versions of motion. CMOS will show fast pans with motion skew. You'd think the job of a video camera is to render motion correctly, right? Is it a defect? CCD's often render a bright light source with a vertical smear all away from top to the bottom of the frame... it's job is to render light properly, right? Defect? Allz I'm saying is each camera, camera type, film, sensor, has its strengths and weaknesses.

and how can I possibly know every single problem a new camera has? it's impossible

Well, as a professional in the industry shooting a paid event, I would think its ultimately the job of the person responsible for the paid project to know about their professional tools, their strengths, weaknesses, limitations, pros, cons, etc. You don't have to know about every single camera's problems, but at least the one you're shooting a paid event for... just my opinion. I spent a lot of time researching my camera, talking to others in the industry on the phone, email, and in person... reading every review possible, and researching these forums. Same applies not just to the camera, but the editing requirements, which may be a deciding factor too.

Why not mention this issue in the box, or say, "Warning! if you shoot indoors you might get some red, but we have a filter that fixes the problem not to worry"

We'll see if the HPX300 says in the box, "Warning, if you shoot 1080/24p with this camera you may get some extreme skewing"! :Þ

I can assure you there is no way I will ever rent or own the EX cameras, I'll probably go with the new HPX300 from Panasonic, tests revealed it does not have this issue. Irest my case

For your type of shooting, I wouldn't use the EX1 either. Just make sure if you get the HPX300, a fine camera I'm sure, just beware of the 1080/24p mode and skewing... ye be warned. Also take a look at the low light capabilities of some cameras vs other, or the video vs. mojo look, or the resolution, or the audio capabilities, or the sharpness of the lcd for critical focusing, etc. etc. You'll find GREAT variations between mfgs and models, each with unique characterstics and 'defects'.

-- that's all i'm saying man, nothing personal

None of this is personal, they're just cameras.

 

[Buck Forester]

Just like the company who sold peanut butter knowing it was TAINTED and then people died. So you're going to tell me it's the guy who ate the peanute butter who is now dead, it's his fault?

You see? Video cameras DO kill people. :Þ

 

[Bobonli]

No mechanical device made is perfect and no manufacturer is going to point out its shortcomings. For example:

The last series of Canon SLRs had awful autofocus that became apparent quickly after release. Many pros jumped ship to other brands. Canon did not advertise this and for awhile didn't even acknowledge it.

The first (and possibly still the current) Leica M-series digital rangefinder has the same/similar IR issues. Again, Leica doesn't publicly say "This camera is awful without an IR filter;" however they did have a program to equip owners with filters.

There are some real stinkers out there in terms of lenses and other gear but you wouldn't know it unless you dug through user forums ("you" in the generic sense, not you personally). Manufacturers are under NO legal duty to tell the consumer each and every possible defect.

Neverthless, this particular camera has a few issues which are easily discoverable with a google search and quick read through the forums. Likewise, Panny's recent offerings.

 

[asafb]

Hi

Hi

Thanks for all your posts, look now it is too late, I'm in touch with Sony. Hopefully they'll be able to color correct this for me and charge me a decent price to get it done or do it w/their professional tools at a low cost or as a favor, I have no idea what Sony will do to help me, we will see

What i'm saying is here is where Sony is different from the other cameras - they came out with the EX1, apparently with this known IR problem, then few years later they come out with the EX3 **AND THEY DID NOTHING TO CORRECT THE PROBLEM** - this is why I *might* have a legal case, to prove their incompetency... that's all i'm saying. Why would you come out with a second-generation unit and do NOTHING to address the issue? And you're saying they have no legal right? You're not a lawyer dude LOL

Asaf.

 

[Bobonli]

Thanks for all your posts, look now it is too late, I'm in touch with Sony. Hopefully they'll be able to color correct this for me and charge me a decent price to get it done or do it w/their professional tools at a low cost or as a favor, I have no idea what Sony will do to help me, we will see

What i'm saying is here is where Sony is different from the other cameras - they came out with the EX1, apparently with this known IR problem, then few years later they come out with the EX3 **AND THEY DID NOTHING TO CORRECT THE PROBLEM** - this is why I *might* have a legal case, to prove their incompetency... that's all i'm saying. Why would you come out with a second-generation unit and do NOTHING to address the issue? And you're saying they have no legal right? You're not a lawyer dude LOL

Asaf.

Actually I am....................

Do you think you're the first person to buy a product that you are not happy with and expect the manufacturer to compensate you for it? The likelihood that Sony will color correct for you is close to zero. They'd be establishing a precedent that they'd have to follow for thousands of other customers. I'm pretty sure their business model does not encompass color correction for unhappy customers.

The legal standard here is "fit for a particular purpose." You can look that up. Buck's posts come pretty close to describing the concept as it applies to cameras. "Fit" does not mean it has to be perfect or make a particular consumer happy.

The camera is a couple of years old now. If there was a reasonable likelihood of success with a class action suit, one of my bretheren would have sent notices to every reigistered owner already. But don't take my word for it--since I'm not dispensing legal advice to you just writing in general terms- go visit your local attorney and see what he or she thinks.

 

[asafb]

Response to bob

Response to bob

Hey Bob,
Let's first see how Sony can help me before assuming they will color correct or not! I don't even mind paying them a small fee to do it. It's such a shame because the camera's sharpness and picture quality is superb, what a shame you know? I guess I'll have to go with the HPX300, since I only shoot in 1080i interlace mode i won't have the "skew" issue, and by th way, what is this "skew" problem all about anyway? Can someone explain to my in plain terms?

 

[GuyB]

Personally, until this camera, I have never ever seen such an optical issue from a camera before. I havn't owned a lot of cameras but I've had a few over the years and it has never ever been seen by me before.

This situtation reminds me somewhat of the JVC Split Screen defect with their HD series, but the defect is more noticable.

Ironically in one concert I had a little Sony HC7 setting next to the EX1 as a second wide shot, it rendered all blacks just fine.....

 

[DCSensui]

The EX1's problem with near-red (it's not infrared) doesn't become apparent under all conditions.

I've had the camera perform just fine in bright sunlight, and under open shade with LED supplementary lighting.

But under daylight-balanced conditions with CTB-gelled incandescent fill lights, a black t-shirt looked dark brown.

So even if you tried this camera out in various situations you might not have noticed the problem until you took it into conditions that were conducive to the problem. Unfortunately it was a big job!

I can't advocate on behalf of either party. However, I will try to provide a possible suggestion. If you can attempt to color correct with software that has a curve-based user interface, you might try attenuating the deeper reds. If you're looking at a scale of 0 to 255, maybe around 20. I have some footage where this happened and will see if Final Cut Pro's "Color" application can fix it.

I would also suggest that once you develop a setting that reduces the problem, you can apply that setting to all the other clips. That would save you a lot of time in post. And if the higher reds are less saturated, you can go into specific saturation adjustments for the range of reds that you do want, and tweak that upward.

It's a pain to do. But possibly a lifesaver.

If you want, you can send a few frames to me and I can see what Color might be able to pull off. It's a very powerful piece of software.

Good luck!

 

[GuyB]

I've tried to colour correct but found if you try to cut the lower reds out, you make correct black go a blue black so really you would have to roto the incorrect sections before you correct, and that is just not practicle in 99.99% of the work this camera is going to be shooting....

 

[robbz]

Greyscale the whole thing

 

[GuyB]

Greyscale the whole thing

Don't laugh, I've had to do that to a significant component of a shoot at the grooms house due to this issue.

 

[timbook2]

If it wasnt for these forums and these posts, I for one wouldnt know ANYTHING about the inherent physical limitations of CCD vs CMOS, or the IR problem. I then make my decisions on what camera to buy/rent, knowing pretty well which problems I can avoid. dvxuser is a great source for getting all this info as there are other forums. I seriously doubt one can sue Sony over this issue but I won some class action suits before where I thought it wasnt possible.....one against Western Union and one against Apple. Its a question of how many people are joining. In the end I got some $$$ back/ a new powersupply and the lawyers made the real profit.

 

[asafb]

Well...

Well...

I am suppose to get an answer back from Sony engineers on my problem, hopefully they have some programs on their end that can color correct this for me.

No EX1/EX3 until they fix the "near-red" issue.

Asaf.

 

[mico]

sorry made a mistake

 

[robbz]

I am suppose to get an answer back from Sony engineers on my problem, hopefully they have some programs on their end that can color correct this for me.

No EX1/EX3 until they fix the "near-red" issue.

Asaf.

This will be very interesting if they agree to fix this, that's very close to an admission and also quite a big precedent to set... Maybe I can send some stuff to Sony as well for a colour fix...

 

[Joe Lawry]

Yea i shot an interview with the band Metrostation last week, came across the issue when i gelled my red heads up and balanced at 56k. Annoying yes, both the band members were wearing black vests which went brown.. Oh well, it went off to MTV was cut and has already aired... noone there noticed a thing. The whole piece was only a 1 minute news story.

I've shot hundreds of IVs with this camera and this was the first time i'd come across the issue (i'd known about it from the start however) And it just happened to be the first time in a long long time that i didnt have my Kino flo's with me and had to gel my redheads.

I interviewed Fall Out Boy the day before using the redheads.. in doors at 32k... no issues at all.