Ipad/Ipad touch as field recorder? Why or why not?

R

RTLdan

Member
Hello Everyone!
I'm trying to gather everything I need to do some reasonably high quality video work and I'm currently looking into my options for affordable sound recorders. The obvious ones have been Tascam Dr-40/Dr-100 OR the Zoom H4N...but it got me to thinking...what would prevent one from using an ipod touch or ipad to get great audio for film (especially with a multitrack DAW app + a decent iPad interface.)

What would be your disadvantages?
And secondly, if you don't think thats a great idea, is there another idea I'm not considering that may be better than using an H4N or equivelant that isn't crazy expensive like a sound devices recorder.
 
RTLdan said:
Is there another idea I'm not considering that may be better than using an H4N or equivalent that isn't crazy expensive like a sound devices recorder.
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Yes, use a good mixer with a low-cost / low-noise recorder : Sound Devices MixPre-D Mixer ( $900 ) + Olympus LS-12 Recorder ( $150 )

The mixer does all the heavy lifting, and the recorder simply records what the mixer feeds it. The Olympus LS-12 recorder has a -75 dB RMS noise-floor when recording LINE LEVEL audio, it's fairly compact, so it's easy to tuck into the mixer-bag, and it will run for 50 hours on two AA batteries.

If you are not partial to Olympus, then the more expensive Sony PCM-M10 recorder ( $250 ) has the SAME -75 dB RMS noise-floor when recording LINE LEVEL audio, it's also fairly compact, so it too will tuck into your mixer bag, and it runs for 30 hours on two AA batteries.

You can also go with the chunkier Tascam DR-40 recorder ( $135 ) which also has the same -75 dB RMS noise-floor with recording LINE LEVEL audio, not so compact, but it would still tuck into a larger audio mixer bag, and it runs for 15 hours on three AA batteries.

...I want gear that is compact, records great sound, and is reliable. I honestly can't see how an iPad would bring anything to the table, other than trouble. Big, awkward, and not designed for harsh conditions.
 
I've got a Numark interface for an iPod, which remotes the play, stop and rewind buttons, for playback, and also I discovered lets me engage record mode and it actually records reasonably for a device that compresses as it records. Quality is OK. However, for a recorder - I'd not want to use it because ipods and pads are NOT professional quality recorders - they lack all the features we take for standard, and have no record level control or input monitoring - so useless for any controlled activity. Buy a proper, purpose designed recorder. Loads of devices have decent audio recording quality, but they're not purpose designed for the job, so who bother?
 
Hi Dingo!
Definitely get what you are saying, and the more I think about it I agree that the ipad (or more portable ipod touch 4th gen) would be more hassle than help. I was just shooting in the dark at a possible way to get good quality audio, not really thinking about some of the more practical elements.

I like where you are going with using a good portable mixer and just going line level into an affordable portable recorder...
but while I know sound devices is a standard for a reason, I can't help but wonder if there may be another portable mixer out there that can provide good quality for say, less than $300? Just one of those situations where I couldn't dump $1k into audio recorder setup at the moment, even though I would agree 100% that the sound devices would serve me better and be a better value long term. For my needs, I could get by with a two channel mixer. Most of my capture would be mono, but to be safe, the ability to capture stereo would be a good move. I have seen battery powered mixers by rolls for very little money. Any reason why these aren't recommended for a shoestring budget rig? Any other portable mixer that won't cost so much as the Sound Devices but delivers ok?

Thanks in advance for your help!
-Daniel
 
Just as an update - After looking on B&H for instance, I found the Rolls MX124 which is a very basic 4 XLR channel mixer with phantom power. No VU's and another reviewer griped about a tone generator for matching levels to his camera, but to me as an inexperienced field recorder, this looks like a viable option for it's meager $150 price tag. Any reason you would dissuade someone from this option? Perhaps we might be skeptical of any benefit of the noise or preamp quality compared to a recorder like the DR-40 by itself? Thoughts are greatly appreciated....
Thanks!
-Daniel
 
RTLdan said:
... but to me as an inexperienced field recorder, this looks like a viable option for it's meager $150 price tag.
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Here's the challenge. You don't have experience, yet you're looking at a cheap mixer with no metering or other proper calibration tools. With no experience, flying blind is setting yourself up for failure.

This is a question that keeps coming up, after investing in a camera, lenses,support rig, etc.: how can I record good sound without putting any investment in it?

On a professional set, the sound mixer may be using an audio rig worth 3x what the camera cost. I understand tight budgets, but there has to be some reasonable investment in order to get a functional, reliable system. Why buy cheap rubbish now, only to have to re-buy something better later? Buy right and buy once.

The answer is not to buy the cheapest stuff possible now; it's to buy one item that will do most of what you need to do, allow you to expand on it later with other gear, and won't be an obsolete purchase in 6-12 months when you have a little more money to spend on the gear you really want.

A mixer is great, and in the long run is a necessity. For now, though, you can get by with just a reliable recorder that has decent pre-amps. Look at the Fostex FR2-LE, or the TASCAM HD-P2. Or, if you want more track flexibility later, look at the TASCAM DR-680. Start with a good recorder and you can expand later with a mixer.
 
RTLdan said:
I can't help but wonder if there may be another portable mixer out there that can provide good quality for say, less than $300?
Click to expand...

Your original post mentioned using an iPad, which can cost $600 all by itself, so I did not factor the total cost of the mixer + recorder.

If a Sound Devices MixPre-D ( $900 ) is too expensive, there are a few alternatives that can still produce very good results...

1- Used Sound Devices MixPre : This is the old model that sells used for about $500 and is a great piece of audio gear.

2- New Sound Devices MM-1 ( $500 ) : This is a boom-op mic pre-amp that is kind of like a one channel mixer. You might be able to find one used for less than $400.

3- JuicedLink Riggy RA222 ( $400 ) : This is a good quality 2 channel pre-amp solution with many useful features. If money was tight and I was buying new, then this would definitely be on my list.

4- Tascam DR-100 Mk2 ( $275 ) : It's a good recorder and can produce good results as long as you do NOT use the HIGH mic gain setting. This recorder gets very noisy in the HIGH gain setting.

5- Used JuicedLink pre-amp : You might be able to get a bargain ( $200 ) on a used JuicedLink pre-amp, just make sure it has the features you need.


...Whatever you end up buying, make sure you learn how to use it, which includes knowing what a piece of gear CAN and CAN'T do. ( and don't skimp on the headphones, Sony 7506 is a good place to start for $100 )
 
Hi Alex,
Thanks for your reply!
I should have been more clear - I'm not very experienced in field recording specifically, but I'm not a stranger to the game.
I work as a touring audio tech for a national band. Videography is my new hobby when I'm not on the road.
Now, if you were asking my about getting great sound in the studio I could talk to you all day about low-cost "sleeper" options that will surprise you for their pricepoint. Field recording is just something I don't know much about as far as what offerings are out there in that same sort of "sleeper" price point.

I agree wholeheartedly that the higher priced pro options are going to better and more full featured. In most cases the adage "buy once, cry once" is a very true motto....
...but if we all had waited for a $20k car instead of starting with the beater, a lot of us wouldn't be driving either.
So, just to clarify, I realize that a racecar driver isn't going to be driving a 1994 Buick, but you can still make that beater go fast! Not looking for the absolute cheapest option out there. Metaphorically speaking, I want the car that will get me there and back but maybe isn't so cool or full featured. For now.

Definitely very much in love with the idea of affordable modularity that can build up to something pro.
I will have to take a look at the recorders you mentioned in your reply.

Thanks again!
-Daniel
 
Dingo,
Very true, an iPad costs money too -- but I already own it. Same with the iPod touch.
That was kind of the original thought...maybe I could use something I've already purchased to get great audio.
I quickly nixed the idea for the general clumsiness and the necessity of using a decent front end for it anyway, which leads me right back buying something.

I definitely considered the juiced link into something like the Tascam DR-40...but now that I'm trying to look at the specs, I seem to be finding that it only has an 1/8" output jack? I guess that could work...just seems kind of like a janky way of getting audio out and into the recorder.

Looking into the recorders that Alex mentioned...probably will end up starting with a basic recorder (maybe even the super cheap DR-40) and upgrade to a decent mixer/pre as more funds become available.
 
RTLdan said:
probably will end up starting with a basic recorder (maybe even the super cheap DR-40) and upgrade to a decent mixer/pre as more funds become available.
Click to expand...

Be careful with the Tascam DR-40 pre-amp levels, this recorder starts to get noisy past level 60. It's a great recorder for LINE level signals, but gets noisy when dealing with weak mic level signals.

Also, keep in mind that these recorders can only supply phantom power for 1+ hours before the batteries are dead. ( some mics draw more power than others )
 
Has anyone considered portable multitrack options like the zoom R8? It's powered for four hours with AA's, records 48Khz, has phantom and XLR inputs.
What would prevent this from being a better option than something like a Zoom H4N?

Thanks!
-Daniel
 
RTLdan said:
Has anyone considered portable multitrack options like the zoom R8? It's powered for four hours with AA's, records 48Khz, has phantom and XLR inputs.
What would prevent this from being a better option than something like a Zoom H4N?

Thanks!
-Daniel
Click to expand...

For one, Zoom recorders aren't the greatest in the world; they've been surpassed many times over by TASCAM, Fostex, Roland... and the pre-amps in Zoom recorders aren't nearly as clean as others. The DR-40 trumps the H4n at a much lower price.

Second, the Zoom R-series recorders aren't the most portable. They're actually downright clumsy unless you're using them more as a cart-based solution. Even at that, the meters are rudimentary at best.

Last, read specs carefully on those. The R8 has only two mic inputs and can record only two tracks at a time. The R16 can record 8 tracks simultaneously, but is stuck at 44.1kHz unless using it as a computer interface. The R24 can record 8 simultaneous tracks at 48k as a standalone.
 
I've found in the location audio world, the phrase "you pay for what you get" is actually spot on. In the studio world I've seen lots of low cost solutions that work really well, but you have lots of time to experiment and you are in a controlled environment. Production sound isn't the same, unfortunately. You also have to factor in that the cost to performance ration of gear has dramatically dropped over time. Back in the day a mono Nagra cost $17K, and all it did was record one track of audio. No timecode, no metadata. None of that. Just record one audio track. But, it did it really really well. Now you can get a Sound Devices 702T used for under $2K. THAT is the route I'd go. I have a 744t and love it. I've used the 702t, and it's a great machine for what it is. It's rugged as all get out. Sounds great. Easy to use. It's the perfect two track machine for field recording.
 
Why even bother with a DSLR and just use the i-pad or i-phone for everything ???

cue endless threads about why it doesn't look like a RED or Alexa !!!!
 
GaryNattrass said:
Why even bother with a DSLR and just use the i-pad or i-phone for everything ???

cue endless threads about why it doesn't look like a RED or Alexa !!!!
Click to expand...


The original idea was only to use the iPod/iPad as a hard disk recorder. I would still have wanted to use proper microphones, pres, and converters. At that point it's just ones and zeros....and of course workflow, which counts for something too. Just trying to think out of the box here, not trying to say that most people should or can get away with using less than professional gear, I've just always been a very DIY, prove them wrong sort of guy because I've not had the privelage of a budget. I'm basically looking for the T2i of audio - it looks 90% as good as the much more expensive 5D3 at a fraction of the cost. Is it the best? Absolutely not! But can it get by? I think so.
To be honest, I feel like there is a massive hole in the product offerings at this quality level for portable audio recorders. I realize we have come light years in letting prosumers get great results for prices that would have been unheard of ten years ago, but coming from the pro audio world where there is a computer interface and mic for every conceivable budget, I remain puzzled when I look at field recording on B&h and find mostly junk all the way up to around $600, and then a huge jump to the thousands.
I hope the "DSLR revolution" will encourage more options - and quick!

Daniel
 
RTLdan said:
I remain puzzled when I look at field recording on B&h and find mostly junk all the way up to around $600
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It's definitely not "junk", but you won't find good low-noise pre-amps in anything under $600, so you have to add a good mixer to compensate for this.

RTLdan said:
I hope the "DSLR revolution" will encourage more options - and quick!
Click to expand...

It's not going to happen because good pre-amps cost money and non-professionals are hesitant to spend this kind of money.
 
If you are a touring audio tech for a national touring band - surely you know all these answers. You'll have used kit ideally suited to this task, and surely you would know how to record the desk output onto an iPad when on the road, and have discovered how clunky it is, and easy to mess up. I'm confused as to what the problem really is? You know what makes decent kit decent from your live audio work - what's changed here?
 
Paulears,
No, I'm not the FOH engineer, and I have not been recording anything live as a part if my job as a tech.
My use with the iPad for recording is limited to some of my own demos using a multitrack DAW app, which have actually turned out quite impressive, and that led me to believe maybe it was possible for a field recorder also.Within the last year at NAMM we have seen a proliferation of iPad based pro audio products - from wireless mixers to recording software. It's definitely moving towards being used in pro settings. We had a gig where all of our monitors were mixed on an iPad and the engineer was able to go wherever he needed to instead of being stuck in monitor world Thats a controlled environment though, and I certainly can see how the iPad or iPod could be more hassle than help for field recording.
Yes, I do know what makes good kit for live sound reinforcement. The principals may be the same, but tmod needs are different. I wouldn't be using a shotgun mic for live sound reinforcement, and I have no need for portable self powered recorders and mixers in my job either. That's the reason for the post, to get very specific advice from a sister field that has its own unique requirements.

Dingo,
I would hope Moore's law would prove that wrong. There are definitely enough home recording enthusiasts looking for clean cheap preamps that it should create a demand for innovation. I have a hard time believing that everything in technology will get better except for the noise level in consumer preamps. Alas, where you are probably right is in the fact that they are unlikely to get here soon. Still, I'm holding my breath because I've seen impossible things in pro A/V become possible in the last ten years.

In any case, after all the advice I have received, I think I'm going to pick up a tascam dr-40 which I believe will give me somewhat acceptable results for my current needs. I'll add a good field mixer next time budget allows, and by the time my budget allows another purchase we may have a whole new set of digital recorders to weigh in on. What I will remind myself in the mean time is that what I can get now in my budget is in many ways better than what people made work in times past. I guess Im from gen spoiled!
Cheers! and happy film making, right?

Daniel
 
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