Info from last nights CineAlta group meeting

  • Thread starter Thread starter G.P.
  • Start date Start date
Steve Castle said:
btw 3G SDI is confirmed for the F3). Clearly there is a lot more room for a simple dual-link 444 recorder below the Cinedeck which is packed with features. And there are plenty of monitoring options. So I wouldn't consider it a $30-40k camera... But the NXCAM is where most consumers should be if single HD SDI and 422 is what they expect to record to.
Click to expand...

That is great news the dual-link will use the 3G-SDI protocol. I assumed part of Sony's marketing strategy was to make it near impossible for 3rd party recorders to have near feature parity to Sony's 444 10-bit recorder.

When you do the math...

14K for body
12K for the recorder
5 to 7K minimum for the lenses, MINIMUM
3K for memory and accessories...

You are at 30K. A set of Zeiss CP.2 lenses will set you back about 20K. Add an external monitor, cables, extra rails accessories, new rings for your mattebox you are well into the plus $30K range.

If you have no intention of getting a high end external recorder the NXCAM makes a lot of sense. Paired with a nanoFlash (or a Ki Pro Mini when the product surfaces), a Marshall and a set of kit lenses you have yourself a very decent camera. You will be down some of the paintbox parameters of the F3 and you're limited to a single channel of phantom powered audio. You can always get the AJA 4 track HD-SDI audio embedder to add your audio to your digital stream.
 
Or 13,300 for camera

Lenses, Arri master primes $1000.00 RENT
Recorder $500.00 RENT
Accessories, cards and monitor already own.

Even better deal, that way as well.
 
Giuseppe Pugliese said:
Sure thing, just to clarify, this question is for the F3 right?

I believe the answer is yes all the ports actually put out at the same time, including the Dual Link as well... But to make sure I'm not spreading internet roomer I will triple check on the 4th to make sure. But at the last meeting it was already stated that the Dual-Link and HD-SDI port will operate at the same time.

I will put that question on the list that I have for them, check back on my GPCinematography site or on here for the answer after the Jan 4th.
Click to expand...

Actually Guys the answer is no. The HDMI and HDSDI do not work simultaneously. Its one or the other. That was one of the things I had tested because of I was thinking the same thing about EVF's using the HDMI, and sending out HDSDI to monitors. One solution is using a Nanoflash that does send out both at the same time. It was one of my questions to Sony why they didn't do that.

Another issue is when you are using a Nanoflash. You have to send out a clean signal from the camera, so you can't have TC on the monitor like we are used to. I learned that quickly. It means re-introducing TC readers like the Scriptlink for TC notes
 
JDDalllas said:
Thanks man! Yes it's for F-3.

I think this may this on your list, but will the all the primes ever be available to those who didn't order 3 primes with cam, but own body.
While I'm at it...
Also any new items in the Picture Profiles list, or are they the same paint options as in EX-1/3?
What will come in package, any cards or batteries?


Thanks again.
Click to expand...

I don't know all the EX 1 set-ups but there is a F35 video look and a couple of gamma settings that are from the F35/9000. The camera I used that was a demo, but a production model, with packaging but didn't seem to have cards, or battery charger. They are giving a stereo mic it looks like, unless it changes in the next month.
 
Nigel A said:
Actually Guys the answer is no. The HDMI and HDSDI do not work simultaneously. Its one or the other. That was one of the things I had tested because of I was thinking the same thing about EVF's using the HDMI, and sending out HDSDI to monitors. One solution is using a Nanoflash that does send out both at the same time. It was one of my questions to Sony why they didn't do that.

Another issue is when you are using a Nanoflash. You have to send out a clean signal from the camera, so you can't have TC on the monitor like we are used to. I learned that quickly. It means re-introducing TC readers like the Scriptlink for TC notes
Click to expand...

Oh thats very sad news... That really makes things a bit of a pain trying to setup an external monitor. I would only be recording off the HD-SDI port, and was planning on getting a 3rd party hdmi EVF .... now it looks like those dreams are shattered. I just hope that NanoFlash comes out with a 10bit recorder soon, because I don't want to limit myself to 8bits. I'd much rather get the ki-pro mini then.

I guess I understand why its limited, but I just wish it wasn't.
 
That sux! What the hell Sony...
24 12 20101293180893cvp_ec-rig_1.jpg This was my dream as well.
Anyone here have any pull over at Sony or with a high up rep. that could bring up the issue with them to see if that could be change, before release?
 
Andrew Stone said:
If you have no intention of getting a high end external recorder the NXCAM makes a lot of sense.
Click to expand...

Where do you come up with that? Just because you aren't planning to use 4:4:4 doesn't mean you should buy a prosumer product instead... 10bit 4:2:2 out of the HD-SDI is a standard for most productions. The cameras are completely different.

The NXCAM will most likely have a street price around 5k it will have very limited options, and very limited inputs and out puts. Its no where near the same as its big brother. Just because you aren't planning on using 4:4:4 has nothing to do with the camera itself. It's there as an option.

You are forgetting you have to PAY to enable the 4:4:4 and S-log features... If you need them in the future for a project, you have them. If not, you are good to go.
 
I think the first impression people
will get when the nxcsm version cones out is watered down.
Thats usually a sony trademark
 
Giuseppe Pugliese said:
Oh thats very sad news... That really makes things a bit of a pain trying to setup an external monitor. I would only be recording off the HD-SDI port, and was planning on getting a 3rd party hdmi EVF .... now it looks like those dreams are shattered. I just hope that NanoFlash comes out with a 10bit recorder soon, because I don't want to limit myself to 8bits. I'd much rather get the ki-pro mini then.

I guess I understand why its limited, but I just wish it wasn't.
Click to expand...

The AJA KiPro Mini looks wonderful!
It does have HD/SDI and HDMI INS and OUTS...
So, Giuseppe... I believe we are covered on that matter...

Recording ProRes422HQ from Sony's 10bit422 Output is almost the same as Full-Res Master Quality AVC-Intra100... on Compact Flash cards! And for less that $2.5K... That sounds terrific!

Henry Epstein
 
CinemaElectronika said:
The AJA KiPro Mini looks wonderful!
It does have HD/SDI and HDMI INS and OUTS...
So, Giuseppe... I believe we are covered on that matter...

Recording ProRes422HQ from Sony's 10bit422 Output is almost the same as Full-Res Master Quality AVC-Intra100... on Compact Flash cards! And for less that $2.5K... That sounds terrific!

Henry Epstein
Click to expand...

I've been talking to the AJA folks and this will be a great option as well. The Coke shoot I did we had to use a lot of T's. One monitor to operate with split to a monitor for the focus puller, and one to the director. I was hoping to send a downconverted signal to the client, but that didn't work. We will just have to adapt, or keep pressing Sony for it.
 
Andrew Stone said:
That is great news the dual-link will use the 3G-SDI protocol. I assumed part of Sony's marketing strategy was to make it near impossible for 3rd party recorders to have near feature parity to Sony's 444 10-bit recorder.

When you do the math...

14K for body
12K for the recorder
5 to 7K minimum for the lenses, MINIMUM
3K for memory and accessories...

You are at 30K. A set of Zeiss CP.2 lenses will set you back about 20K. Add an external monitor, cables, extra rails accessories, new rings for your mattebox you are well into the plus $30K range.

If you have no intention of getting a high end external recorder the NXCAM makes a lot of sense. Paired with a nanoFlash (or a Ki Pro Mini when the product surfaces), a Marshall and a set of kit lenses you have yourself a very decent camera. You will be down some of the paintbox parameters of the F3 and you're limited to a single channel of phantom powered audio. You can always get the AJA 4 track HD-SDI audio embedder to add your audio to your digital stream.
Click to expand...

The F3 is a $13.3k camera that is meant to fit in with other professional equipment. This is not a prosumer camera, it is professional equipment that is designed to be used with other equipment that professionals would presumably have.

Most professionals have an arsenal of equipment which they make an income off of, be it monitoring equipment, cables, rails, or an external recorder. The recorder may not be an HDCAM SR, it could be just a Ki Pro Mini or Nanoflash. But whatever it is, the F3 is designed to be a part of that ecosystem. So calling this camera a $30k+ camera is disingenuous.

I would support that logic if this F3 required completely proprietary set of equipment, but it doesn't. I would say the PL lenses would be the major piece of equipment that many may not have in their repertoire of tools, its only with the Red that we have seen a sudden resurgence of demand for these lenses, and this is why we Sony is offering a set of affordable lenses as a kit. But we don't usually calculate lens costs into the comparison discussion of camera bodies, since while one person may be using an adapted Nikon lens, the other may be using a Master Prime.

The economics of this camera is that most people are going to use this camera with what they have. It may mean that a lot of people will record to a Nanoflash, but it also means that 444 is a quick rental away. If a unique lens for a specific job is needed, then that too can be easily rented (or a dSLR lens or an adapted Duclos can stand-in if necessary).

Those are the financial dynamics. As affordable dual-link HD-SDI recorders start appearing many may decide on owning a 444 recorder rather than renting it. Sony's SR-R1 444 recorder is suppose to be more affordable as its limited to SR Lite and 440 Mbps. But there is going to be a lot of competition from third-parties as well.

dcloud said:
I think the first impression people
will get when the nxcsm version cones out is watered down.
Thats usually a sony trademark
Click to expand...


As for the NXCAM I think a lot of price-sensitive people will opt for it. It probably won't have S-log (and hence 12-stop DR) nor can it do 60p at 422. It'll obviously be AVCHD limited at 24 Mbps, it won't have dual HD-SDI/3G SDI as an option, most will rely on the internal codec recorded to a cheap SD card and use dSLR lenses.

The F3 and the NXCAM will have a very different set of users.
 
Duke M. said:
According to crews.tv there is another prototype NXCam body form in the works that doens't look like the smooth box image they first released.
Click to expand...

I believe I saw a sneak peak at it, it does look different and had a handle with rocker.
 
Yves did mention it had a handle, so yes it sounds like it will be more of a standard camera form factor. Did you see if it had a rear VF, or forward mounted one?
 
from what I saw it was still pretty much looking like the box it was, but now with a rocker handle, they might keep changing things, but it will still be very small
 
I don't think the Ki Pro will capture S-log data either. But if you don't need it, then no problem.
 
Here is an official update to yesterdays CineAlta meeting:

Ok so after driving into Manhattan and ariving at the Sony Lab, I've come to find out I am pretty much the only person who showed up! They canceled the meeting, BUT I got to speak with them on some important topics before it was over...

The questions were:

Will the Sony PL lenses come with a case?

A: They don't know just yet, but they are working on developing a case for the F3 body. (So I'm guessing they will develop a case just for the lenses but at a price)

Will the Sony F3K kit come in one large box, or multiple boxes (which means more shipping)

A: TBA

Will the PL wide angle zoom they are making be available to all, or only those who can prove they own an F3?

A: TBA


How is the Cooke/i lens info being stored?

A: They are working on this and it will be stored on the SxS cards but no more info other than that so far.

How do you swap/load LUT's to the camera?

A: So far they are looking at 2 options, one being loading them to SxS cards, the other via the USB port. the camera can hold 4 LUT's loaded at a time. (I am hoping its via the USB port, because using the SxS cards would be a hassle having to load the card from a reader, then use the card to load the LUT's)

Is the HDSDI and HDMI able to work at the same time?

A: At this time it is unsure if it will be available. ( I specifically asked this because it seems like everyone was so sure it wasn't possible. I wanted to know right from Sony. It seems like the way we were talking it was leaning towards a yes, considering his reaction to hearing that there was "confirmed roomer" that they wouldn't work at the same time. He was very sharp to say that is not true yet, and they are still in development. He stated that any camera that locked the users from using both the HDSDI and HDMI at the same time was purely because its a pre-production model.)


So there you have it, the nitty gritty on more of an exclusive interview than a meeting, but none the less I got some of the answers I wanted.

Link to video: http://gpcinematography.blogspot.com/2010/12/questions-for-sony-regarding-f3.html



Happy New Year!
 
Last edited:
Thanks a lot for making the effort! Sounds like good news, their hearing us and taking feedback. That's good.
Just wondering when you asked about the HDMI and SDI did he get your "vibe" that everyone might be real upset if they didn't make both accessible.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top