Info from last nights CineAlta group meeting

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Daniel,

I would be surprised if Sony released much, if any, information on it until NAB and that is AFTER they have unveiled the PL and F3 mount zooms for the F3. Sony will want to get as much "pop" as possible from F3 sales before releasing much on the S35 NXCAM. They would cannibalize sales from their own product line. Further to that, Sony (remarkably) is doing quite well in marketing their F3 in the face of what looked like the unstoppable juggernaut of the AF-100/101. They have no reason to release more info on the NXCAM right now. What they have to do is sell as many F3's as possible before the bloom is off the rose.
 
I think that they would not have announced it in the first place at the lauch of the F3 (month before it is even available) if they did not want to cannibalize it sales. I think we are witnessing a company which has decided to take by storm a market it has identified as having big market potential. Sony has identified that the large sensor s35 market had very big potential with the success of the Dslr craze. It has seen how many even very good pros and production where ready to live with some horrendous flaw like moire and aliasing with the Dslr just to get the look. If it did not provide the tools, another one would do it. So even if it is losing some sales in the high end it is going to recoup or make much more in the mid to lower end market in terms of volume and market presence.


When the announcement of the f3 and 444 slog everyone was saying the same thing. That it is going to cannibalize the sales of the higher end Sony F35. But I think they are ready to loose some but get much more in many. They are occupying the market at different price point with different product with a fix set of features.

In fact the sleeping giant was not sleeping at all, they have constructed a very good game plan to rule this s35 market. When everybody was thinking that they were late, that the market was left for the Red and Dslr of this world. Here comes Sony with the only company that can claim that they have a full line of models when the NXcam comes out. From the $ 500 Nex line of Dslr to tens of thousand f35.

So you want the s35 look for your family photos and video we have the nex 3 - 5 starting $ 500 - $ 1200 with a lense

You want more of the camcorder functionality with photo also get the nex-vg10 at about $ 2000

You are more serious and want a dedicated video camera with 442 10 bit output get the NXcam Hd $ 5000 - $ 7000

You need still more and get into the high end 444 slog camera get the f3 starting $ 13000

And their top of the line s35 CCD cameras for tens of thousand.
 
Thinking more and more about this is the irony of how perception changes. I always thought that red should have embrace the Dslr movement rather than reject and despise it. While red was perceive as a company that was listening to its customer it is Sony who is delivering the product. If the Sony Nxcam comes with the spec (s35 sensor, 11 stop dynamic range, very good low light, 10 bit 422 hd-sdi output) and price point (below $ 6000) it will be the 2k, s35 I always wanted the scarlet to be and the indy cam that many will be perfectly happy to buy. It will be more than... good enough at this price point to this market. Coming back to my first point, now Sony will be the champion of the indy crowd while red will be the inaccessible high end one and the snob image it brings along. It will be the big company's that will be the saviors!!! The point above also applies to Panasonic with the feature pack af-100.
 
Danielvilliers said:
It would be nice to have some news on the Sony S35 Nxcam, it seems from some blog post like here http://crews.tv/blog/2010/12/14/more-s35-nxcamfun-from-sony/ that Sony is developing it very fast and it would be nice to have some update.
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I thinking Sony expects that 80-90% of their S35 camera sales will come from this new NXCAM. The F3 will be a higher-end niche. There just seems to be a lot more attention to detail in NXCAM camera that point to a more mass appeal device; it has a new bespoke body rather than a EX hand-me-down, F3 sensor, and a much more attainable price point. I wouldn't be surprised if the street price of that camera comes close to the AF100.

Danielvilliers said:
Thinking more and more about this is the irony of how perception changes. I always thought that red should have embrace the Dslr movement rather than reject and despise it. While red was perceive as a company that was listening to its customer it is Sony who is delivering the product. If the Sony Nxcam comes with the spec (s35 sensor, 11 stop dynamic range, very good low light, 10 bit 422 hd-sdi output) and price point (below $ 6000) it will be the 2k, s35 I always wanted the scarlet to be and the indy cam that many will be perfectly happy to buy. It will be more than... good enough at this price point to this market. Coming back to my first point, now Sony will be the champion of the indy crowd while red will be the inaccessible high end one and the snob image it brings along. It will be the big company's that will be the saviors!!! The point above also applies to Panasonic with the feature pack af-100.
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In terms of the dSLR movement. I'm sure in time we'll likely see the dSLR makers coming out with RAW video soon. The sensor speed is catching up fast, even an cheap entry-level dSLR can do around 160 megapixel/s readout these days. Furthermore, camera makers like Sony and Nikon are pushing for a new 500MB/s CF cards.

While I think Canon or Nikon will probably be the first, and early models may employ CMOS windowing and sub-sampled readout, it seems to be the direction that dSLRs are heading especially for sports-action photography that requires as many frames as possible to get the perfect shot, and isn't heavily concerned about high megapixel images.

Hitherto, what has prevented high-speed raw photography is that dSLR still relied on phase-detection AF and the clunky mirrorbox assembly, but contrast AF is catching up rapidly and new pellicle mirror AF systems are enable high-speed raw photography with full AF. I think it'll be inevitable, but dSLR makers will be coming first from a still photography perspective.
 
Andrew Stone said:
Daniel,

I would be surprised if Sony released much, if any, information on it until NAB and that is AFTER they have unveiled the PL and F3 mount zooms for the F3. Sony will want to get as much "pop" as possible from F3 sales before releasing much on the S35 NXCAM. They would cannibalize sales from their own product line. Further to that, Sony (remarkably) is doing quite well in marketing their F3 in the face of what looked like the unstoppable juggernaut of the AF-100/101. They have no reason to release more info on the NXCAM right now. What they have to do is sell as many F3's as possible before the bloom is off the rose.
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This is exactly right. The only reason why sony even mentioned the NXCAM was to catch the people who would have bought an AF100, and showing them that they have the answer for the AF100 as well. Sony is focused on the F3, and they are doing extremely well. No info will be given out about the NXCAM until the F3 is done shipping and on the market for a short while. Then more NXCAM info will come grabbing those who want to wait for a true s35 sensor camera with better everything for the same price as AF100.

As far as RAW footage from DSLR's... its still a gimmick. DSLR's are NOT made for the movie industry, they are made with wedding photographers in mind. Thats how it started. Even if canon put out a DSLR that did RAW 1080p, it still would HAVE to be built like a stills camera. Which means it would never be able to handle what could be much better in a regular video camera form. DSLR movement for the most part will be dead after this summer. The market has jumped and s35mm video cameras are now here to stay. No more need for contraptions.
 
Giuseppe Pugliese said:
As far as RAW footage from DSLR's... its still a gimmick. DSLR's are NOT made for the movie industry, they are made with wedding photographers in mind. Thats how it started. Even if canon put out a DSLR that did RAW 1080p, it still would HAVE to be built like a stills camera. Which means it would never be able to handle what could be much better in a regular video camera form. DSLR movement for the most part will be dead after this summer. The market has jumped and s35mm video cameras are now here to stay. No more need for contraptions.
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If Canon, or any other camera maker, were to do raw video in an dSLR it wouldn't be 1080p, it would be as close as possible to the full resolution of the sensor, or as high a resolution as possible.

You're right in that it won't be a movie maker tool first, it'll be for photography tool first, and there is a very practical reason for that. Ultimately, the goal would be to have a continuous stream of high quality raw frames stored on the camera, where the photographer could go back and cherry pick the exact frame he or she wants.

For this reason, I wouldn't be surprised if the next Canon 1D MkV or Nikon 'D4' is camera that can take 12-16 MP raw images at 24-30 frames a second. But as we've seen with the F3 there will be a clear line drawn between equipment aimed at professionals in the movie industry and those aimed at other markets- we're finally starting to see some precision in the way these devices are developed for a specific market need.

We have yet to see Canon's hand for their video S35 rival, we really haven't even seen what Panasonic has planned above the AF100. We know they have something planned. But whatever it is, still and video technology are converging, and one plays off the other even if the product is catered to their audience.
 
I am of those who believe we will have another Dslr revolution. In fact it will an accident as the first one when Nikon and Canon put half hearten effort just to put some video function in the slr range of cameras as it was already in the point and shoot. Little did they know that people where dreaming of the s35 look that much that they would forgo all the functionality and image problem in there implementation. That they would be used in professional production.

The second one will be when one of those Dslr manufacturer will implement a raw output video. It will be full of problem like no standard frame rate, resolution or nle compatibily etc. but the final image quality will convince many to use them. Look how the audio world has moved and you will see the same pattern. Everything is about data, as technology moves to a certain threshold, it becomes economically feasible at mass market level and price point. I don' t think we will see it before the next five years about two Dslr generations. I think we will firstly see clean hdmi output in the next generation before in models like the Canon 5d mark 3. In 10 years time, I bet that we will have small Red or Alexa type of images in less than $ 2000 camera. We will all be looking at those days that we were dreaming of it. History will repeat itself, 5 years ago a 6 mega pixel camera like the the nikon d100 was $ 3000, now you can get much much better quality out of a $ 500 entry level camera.
 
Giuseppe Pugliese said:
This is exactly right. The only reason why sony even mentioned the NXCAM was to catch the people who would have bought an AF100, and showing them that they have the answer for the AF100 as well. Sony is focused on the F3, and they are doing extremely well. No info will be given out about the NXCAM until the F3 is done shipping and on the market for a short while. Then more NXCAM info will come grabbing those who want to wait for a true s35 sensor camera with better everything for the same price as AF100.
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I do agree that Sony might not been that vocal about the Nxcam if the Af-100 was not here. But in the end you have the same result. They are communicating and very aggressively. They made a point that the camera had the same sensor on numerous occasion. That is what made a lot of us exited from the start. If we were still speculating that the sensor was the one in the nex vg-10, do you think we would have been that exited. But they did the Nxcam with it's bigger brother affiliation very clear.

For an end of January to start of February Sony F3 lauch, I think production model should be close to coming out of the factory by now and that most development is already done. If you read the crewtv article above you would see that the Nxcam has already changed and advance a lot from last month at its presentation. So they are really concentrating on it.
 
Danielvilliers said:
I am of those who believe we will have another Dslr revolution. In fact it will an accident as the first one when Nikon and Canon put half hearten effort just to put some video function in the slr range of cameras as it was already in the point and shoot. Little did they know that people where dreaming of the s35 look that much that they would forgo all the functionality and image problem in there implementation. That they would be used in professional production.

The second one will be when one of those Dslr manufacturer will implement a raw output video.
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There are a lot of people fed up with the moire, lack of resolution and aliasing in the DSLR format. For technical reasons you can't get over those issues entirely in a camera intended for photos.

I think the AF100 and NXCam are intended to address those issues with a lower price point that will draw away many of the DSLR users. As the quality of these new cameras increases the DSLRs will primarily be for those with price as the primary criteria.
 
DSLR's are not for professional use in the cinema world. Sure it's used for small indi films, students and internet video... But for someone who pays their bills, puts a roof over their head, and feeds them and their children, an actual production camera built for cinema use is the only thing you can safely use.

I'm tired of the debate on cameras and their use. There are intended uses for devices. Just because people choose to ignore this and insert their own ideas doesn't mean this isn't true. The fact is: DSLR's are made for photography. Even if you add some kind of RAW video ability, its still a stills photography camera with that option, not the other way around.

Anyway back on topic please, the NXCAM info will not really be around until after the F3 is in peoples hands, its purely business, you dont cannibalize what you create. Not only that but the NXCAM has changed a lot in its physical workings. Its still under development and any info being given could end up changing, so theres no credibility to getting early info on a camera that is still 7 months away from being in consumers hands.

I will ask on the 4th but I have a feeling the info will be the same we've been hearing already.
 
JDDalllas said:
Hey Giuseppe, can you find out or confirm if the HDMI and the SDI work at the same time. Just thinking about this nice VF solution. http://www.hotrodcameras.com/product/cineroid-hd-evf/
But now the clients can't view output via SDI...if only one output is active and being used on viewfinder.

Thanks
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Sure thing, just to clarify, this question is for the F3 right?

I believe the answer is yes all the ports actually put out at the same time, including the Dual Link as well... But to make sure I'm not spreading internet roomer I will triple check on the 4th to make sure. But at the last meeting it was already stated that the Dual-Link and HD-SDI port will operate at the same time.

I will put that question on the list that I have for them, check back on my GPCinematography site or on here for the answer after the Jan 4th.
 
Thanks man! Yes it's for F-3.

I think this may this on your list, but will the all the primes ever be available to those who didn't order 3 primes with cam, but own body.
While I'm at it...
Also any new items in the Picture Profiles list, or are they the same paint options as in EX-1/3?
What will come in package, any cards or batteries?

Thanks again.
 
Giuseppe Pugliese said:
DSLR's are not for professional use in the cinema world. Sure it's used for small indi films, students and internet video... But for someone who pays their bills, puts a roof over their head, and feeds them and their children, an actual production camera built for cinema use is the only thing you can safely use.

I'm tired of the debate on cameras and their use. There are intended uses for devices. Just because people choose to ignore this and insert their own ideas doesn't mean this isn't true. The fact is: DSLR's are made for photography. Even if you add some kind of RAW video ability, its still a stills photography camera with that option, not the other way around.

Anyway back on topic please, the NXCAM info will not really be around until after the F3 is in peoples hands, its purely business, you dont cannibalize what you create. Not only that but the NXCAM has changed a lot in its physical workings. Its still under development and any info being given could end up changing, so theres no credibility to getting early info on a camera that is still 7 months away from being in consumers hands.

I will ask on the 4th but I have a feeling the info will be the same we've been hearing already.
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Nobody, including the camera makers, are expecting professionals to use dSLRs from here on out. Not only is it bad business for the camera makers, but there are tailored needs that must be catered to. However, if you want to know what technology professionals will be using in the future, look no further than dSLRs. Being that still and video sensor technology has converged, dSLRs are where companies are achieving their economies of scale.

As the professional market starts getting more attention from camera makers, we're going to be moving away from a jack-of-all trades type of camera to very focused equipment that is designed for more specific results.

The NXCAM and F35 are good examples of this. Sony is fully aware that the 35 mbps internal codec and VF aren't extracting the potential of the F3. That the NXCAM is a better, cheaper, camera if 422 is what you need.

Sony wants you to use a high-end external recorder, not 50 Mbps 422, but much much more (444, S-log, much higher bitrates). They want you to monitor with a HD-SDI, record with the dual HD-SDI/3G SDI, and offline edit with the SxS files.

I think Sony is very poorly communicating this to the professional community. We even have Phillip Bloom complaining about the bit rate on the SxS files.


Sony's vision:
FDTimes_Sony-F3-LA-Event-085.jpg

FDTimes_Sony-F3-LA-Event-081.jpg
 
Steve is bang on in my view. Once the S35 NXCAM comes out what he is saying will be self-evident to most observers. And frankly, the F3, in my view should be seen as a $30 to $40K package, not a $13,000 cam, that is, if you buy into Sony's complete ecosystem around this camera, rather than a 3rd party recorder. I kinda doubt the 3rd party recorders are going to be able to exploit the full potential of the dual-link SDI even if they do 444 10 bit. The devil will be in the details.
 
Andrew Stone said:
Steve is bang on in my view. Once the S35 NXCAM comes out what he is saying will be self-evident to most observers. And frankly, the F3, in my view should be seen as a $30 to $40K package, not a $13,000 cam, that is, if you buy into Sony's complete ecosystem around this camera, rather than a 3rd party recorder. I kinda doubt the 3rd party recorders are going to be able to exploit the full potential of the dual-link SDI even if they do 444 10 bit. The devil will be in the details.
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Personally, I think we'll see some affordable dual-link/3G SDI recorders coming out in the near future (btw 3G SDI is confirmed for the F3). Clearly there is a lot more room for a simple dual-link 444 recorder below the Cinedeck which is packed with features. And there are plenty of monitoring options. So I wouldn't consider it a $30-40k camera, but certainly a camera that will require the proper equipment to be added.

But the NXCAM is where most consumers should be if single HD SDI and 422 is what they expect to record to. If it uses the F3 sensor it'll give the AF100 a run for its money. I'm hoping they could even add S-log in that camera.
 
Steve Castle said:
I think Sony is very poorly communicating this to the professional community. We even have Phillip Bloom complaining about the bit rate on the SxS files.
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This is exactly what I feel as well, BUT I understand why they haven't "educated" the public about this... I believe they are hoping for the crossover to happen. They seem to wanna grab and convert the prosumer crowd over to the pro side. This camera is a crossbreed.

With that said, it still bothers me, and I really wish sony would communicate better that this camera is much more on the pro side of things than prosumer. The fact that we see people complaining about 50mibt just shows that Sony has not done their jobs communicating that this was meant for OFFLINE use . Every single slide I've seen at the CineAlta meetings have been the same, the internal is used for an offline edit with LUT's burnt in (same as the slides you show). They are a super high quality proxy.

The problem is on the prosumer side of things (Philip Bloom crowd) they are used to working with 35mbit and 50mbit codecs.... meanwhile on the pro side of things, they are used to never using internal anything, and always record out of an HD-SDI either 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 or in some cases RAW. Its the poor education to the prosumer side of things that makes all of these confused conversations about the internal codec happening.

Problem is, Sony is mute on these statements publicly because they don't want to alienate the prosumer side and would rather be silent and make more money (even though ALL of their info provided on the camera clearly shows the internal codec as being used as an offline while simultaneously recording the Dual-Link or HD-SDI out.) I see Sony happy that most are willing to settle for the internal 4:2:0 as their online for small budget/student film use. And just to go on record, the internal codec handles VERY well on a large screen as I've stated before. Since there is hardly any noise at all on the sensor, the images are just super clean.

All that being said, I think anyone in their right mind who wanted to shoot a feature film with this camera, would either buy/rent an external recorder to get all they can out of the camera.

Sony has marketed this camera for FILMMAKING. Look at Sony's press relecese, and for that matter all the other materilas they have produced and put out about the F3... They all say the same thing its for FILMMAKING and FILMMAKERS. Quote from press relecse: "Representing a breakthrough for independant producers and filmmakers" "...is is ideal for use as a 2nd unit 35mm camera to complement to Sony's F35 and SRW-9000PL"

They are targeting a completely different crowd than the prosumer world. Does this change the fact that those crowds are still going to complain about it not having something it doesnt need? unfortunately no... but I hope education will help them understand a bit more why it doesn't have it. Because it doesn't need it.

Warning car example coming up!

You have a Lotus sports car... it doesn't come with cup holders... It doesn't need cup holders. It was built for speed. Yet you will have complaints about it not having cup holders... Well the car was intended as a super sport car, they don't need cup holders because going 80mph on a turn in that car would have whatever was in that cup holder, all over your car interior.

Sometimes things are made exactly for what they are used for. They don't tailor to other uses because it has an intended and specific use.
 
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JDDalllas said:
Thanks man! Yes it's for F-3.

I think this may this on your list, but will the all the primes ever be available to those who didn't order 3 primes with cam, but own body.
While I'm at it...
Also any new items in the Picture Profiles list, or are they the same paint options as in EX-1/3?
What will come in package, any cards or batteries?

Thanks again.
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Yes the lens question is on my list and I've asked it once before...From what I've squeezed out of them the only thing spoken of is the lenses coming IN the kit and thats it. Now we all know that just makes us all a bit grumpy not being able to buy out of kit... but I suspect at some point in time they will open their doors to F3 owners that didn't get the kit, and maybe even the general public. Eventually these lenses will be put on the used market anyway. Some who got the kit will be the stepping stone into the world of PL lenses... In time they will possibly upgrade to even better lenses and selling off their kit lenses.

The paint options in camera from what I've heard have much more options than the EX 1/3. I'll see if I can get any info on that as well. Also expect that the LUT option will be a big thing, since you can supposedly use the same ones as on the F35, F23, and 9000PL.

The package question is a good one, I have not heard in the list having a card in the standard (non K) kit. They said 1 battery and charger comes with all the packages. Now depending on where you buy, there will be kits out of sony that will offer extra batteries and cards, but this of coarse has nothing to do with sony and you will have to pay extra for them. Personally I'd love if the kits come with at least a memory card, as for I don't own sony media yet... but I believe thats just a dream.

I will again confirm as I have before the questions, thanks!



Steve Castle said:
But the NXCAM is where most consumers should be if single HD SDI and 422 is what they expect to record to. If it uses the F3 sensor it'll give the AF100 a run for its money. I'm hoping they could even add S-log in that camera.
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It does use the exact same sensor as the F3. They will not be introducing S-log in that camera from what i've heard. Yes the NXCAM is built to compete for the lower end market of things such as AF100, and DSLR users, as well as any future cameras in that price range that will be coming out soon.
 
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