indoor dialogue - 416 or cheap Hypercardioid?

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perplexia

Member
I've found a lot of helpful info on this site about cheap ($200 or less) Hypercardioid mics for indoor dialogue. I'm considering buying one because I have a Sennheiser MKH416, and I've been told that interference tube shotgun mics aren't ideal for indoor dialogue. I've used the 416 a few times indoors, in quiet rooms with minimal reflections, and it sounded fine. I don't have a budget for a higher-priced mic like a MKH50 or even an Oktava 012, so I'm wondering, should I buy a cheap Hypercardioid mic, or just stick with my 416 for indoor dialogue?

The mics I'm considering are:
Audio-Technica AT875R
iSK Little Jem
Takstar CM-63 (I know, it's cardoid)

Would either of those be a better choice for indoor dialogue than my 416?
 
perplexia said:
...so I'm wondering, should I buy a cheap Hypercardioid mic, or just stick with my 416 for indoor dialogue?
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If it were me, I'd sell the 416 and put the proceeds plus your additional $200 USD toward a good hyper like a used Sennheiser MKH 50 or 8050.

Why? The 416 will work well as long as you keep some distance from surfaces that generate early or quick reflections back to the mic. IOW, nearby walls and ceilings. If the interference tube catches early reflections, it interferes (you see what I did there?) with the direct sound you are trying to capture resulting in artifacts, mostly comb filtering. Very difficult to deal with in post. So it's not about interior vs. exterior, it's about quick reflections.

The non-interference tube hypers don't have this problem. It's not that they like quick reflections, it's just that they don't artifact as badly in the presence of quick reflections. Which is why they are favored for interiors where such reflections abound. But there's no reason to abandon them in exterior situations. They'll work just fine with exteriors.

To summarize, you can use hypers without much problems with interiors and exteriors alike. Shotguns OTOH tend to work well with exteriors (away from reflective surfaces) and are problematic with interiors. If you can only have one mic, it should be a mic that works with both, and that points you toward a hyper like the MKH 50.
 
Let's think out loud for a bit.

Your 416, while older, is still a world class mic. Keep it!

While I have the LyxPro's, the Isk seems to be the same. Gone up $5 I see, but still, $55, with 3 capsules. Is it a $500 mic? No, but probably as good as anything in the $300 price range.

In some cases your 416 will work fine for indoor shoots, the problem is that you sometimes get out of phase reflections. The hyper usually does not, although you can still get reflections, but they will usually not be out of phase. With all three capsules you are set for most conditions you are going to run into. With the omni it will even work as a handheld interview mic.

Seems a no brainer to me. You will probably find that you want a pair of the Isk; so look at the LyxPro too, they come as a pair for a $100. One of the guy's here (PaulF IIRC) did a test of the LyxPro against the Octavia and felt the LyxPro was a better mic. I think that would apply equally to the Isk.

For me the next step up is the AT4053b at $600. I have been looking for a 4053a for a couple of years now and not found a single one for sale, sigh! I figure that when no one is selling their mic, they are real satisfied with it.
 
graywolf said:
... One of the guy's here (PaulF IIRC) did a test of the LyxPro against the Octavia and felt the LyxPro was a better mic..
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I did the comparison, but I did not express an opinion about the mics. One person expressed a preference for the Lyxpro over the Octava. For indoor dialog, I prefer a lavaliere, with the Octava second.

An Octava-MKH 50 comparison would be fun.
 
Unfortunately the sound of the individual Oktava 012 vary.. depending on components availability and the amount of Vodka consumed.
Either way it has a relatively low sensitivity (10mV), so more quiet gain is usually needed for typical dialog pickup. As I recall the ultra low cost Lyxpro is (15mV).
 
;~) the list game of telephone... The Oktava is not on the OP's list of choices and nobody suggested it to him.

Have to agree with Graywolf. I would keep the shotgun for exteriors and get a hyper for places where the shotgun doesn't work as well. The hyper "can" work in either but it is often hard in exteriors to get the hyper close enough to work well, and it picks up more ambience which may be an issue. I would never opt for one tool that does a bunch of things OK if I can get two tools that do specific things really well.

My experience with the current generation of Chinese cheap cardioid and hyper mics is that they are much better value per $ than mics have been in the past. Most are acceptably quiet and decent sounding, at least for dialog. I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense at the moment to buy in the middle, so if you are not going for decently high end then the cheaper mics are probably a better ROI than the mid priced mics.

Since Oktava was mentioned, I like them a lot BUT I bought when they were the only decent mics that didn't cost over a grand. Since their price has come up and the quality of much cheaper mics has come way up. For more nuanced things like acoustic music recording I would give them an edge (maybe a big one) but for production dialog you are talking about a much more limited use. You don't need the lows or the highs much and things like handing noise are a much bigger factor.

That's my thinking today. If you can't spend close to a grand you should probably be looking in the under $100. For dialog the gains of the mid mics are generally not worth the added cost. An exception might be a multi capsule system that covers all your mic needs, those are generally going to be in the mid range and the convenience of one body with cardioid, hyper and shotgun might have enough added value.
 
Scott, an AT4053 with the added omni and cardioid caps runs $1100. Does that make it an expensive mic instead of a mid priced one? Just teasing a bit, the 4049 omni used plus a 4053 capsule is about the only way I have figured out to get a cheaper than usual AT4053B.

Kind of interestingly, I shot my first video since before Xmas on Sunday. Was kind of drunk, so got about 3 minutes of my feet and the pavement and one minute of what I was trying to shoot. But, the sound was kind of good, I do like my AT4073A.
 
I just came across this review https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=astg00qz50k where 3 cheap pics are compared.

I have the Samson CO2 and find it's a good mic but requires a bit of gain so you need good pre-amp.

The LyxPro SDPC-2 & Samson CO2 sound good in his review but he's using a Zoom F4 which has very good pre-amps.

As someone on here (PuerDrifting?) said “These days, I have given up buying expensive high end mics as I will only hire a pro sound mixer for those jobs that warrant such good sound quality and they have the $10k worth of mics ready to go. If they hire me and I have to do sound, they get the competent but cheap sounding Audio-Technica AT875r or the Sennheiser ME64/66 combo. None of these sound great, but they sound okay. My thinking is, if you want pro sound, you hire a sound pro. If you want good enough sound, hire me and foresake the sound mixer (for low end corporate shoots, usually interviews).”.

I had copied that quote and passed it on to another filmmaker. To me, it makes good business sense.

edit: I just came across this review Schoeps MK41 vs Rode NT5 vs Audix SCX1 vs Samson CO2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sNBNuMm4VI&t=320s

Again, a good pre-amp is being (Zoom F8) used and the reviewer mentions( at 6:00) self-noise of the Samson when using a cheaper mixer which has lower quality pre-amps.
 
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edit 2: I asked the first reviewer if he preferred the Samson or the Lyx and his reply was
"Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if they are the same electronics in different housings. if I had to judge, maybe the lyx by a hair... but they are hard to tell apart.."
 
Thanks for all your comments!

Here's a few of my thoughts after reading the posts so far:

- My original question is basically "Is a cheap hypercardoid a better choice for interior dialogue than a 416?" and although nobody has come out and given me a direct answer, I'm getting the impression that the answer is yes - don't use a 416 for interiors.

- I'd rather go with two mics, each with a specific purpose and application, than to try to find one mic that does everything

- My 416 might be "ancient technology" ...but so is a U87, and audio professionals aren't going to stop using those any time soon. Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm keeping it.

- The thread got a little side tracked with a discussion about the Oktava 012. I have no plans to buy one of those at this time.

- puredrifting, the kenstone link you shared was very helpful. Thank you!

- I'm not interested in the Samson C02. I've never liked any Samson gear of any kind - not sure why - I guess it's just a personal choice.

- I think I'll go with either the Little Gem or the AT875R. Based on the advice from doubledark, I might just go with the Little Gem because it's cheaper. (BTW doubledark, I also record on a Zoom F4)

Thanks again for all the helpful insights. I've enjoyed reading all the posts, and I'm interested in continuing the discussion.
 
I'm in the middle of shooting a feature (my own) and bought an MKH50, planning to hire a boom op and have him use my equipment to avoid rental fees. Predictably he likes his own Sanken CS3E better and is using it on every shot. I'm done with recording my own location sound and very shortly will be selling everything: MKH50, AT 4053A, AT 4073A , Zoom F8, KTEK boompole and shockmount.
 
graywolf said:
Scott, an AT4053 with the added omni and cardioid caps runs $1100. Does that make it an expensive mic instead of a mid priced one? Just teasing a bit, the 4049 omni used plus a 4053 capsule is about the only way I have figured out to get a cheaper than usual AT4053B.
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;~) yes that would be an expensive one...

I have some really cheap mics like the $25 CAD cardioid and have some really decent mics, and have used some very good mics. There is a difference and given the choice I would be using Schoeps for FX recording because there is a "bit more there" with them. But the CAD mics are OK for many things and I can stick them in places I wouldn't dare put a $$$ mic. Back when you and I were young ;~) cheap mics were mostly just awful. You had really poor dynamic mics and cheap condensers that all pretty much used the same capsule that gets soldered on to circuit boards for games etc. They were spectrum crippled and noisy. I'm sure you can still find mic of that level in some toys but the vast majority of cheap mics out today aimed at musicians and students etc. are light years ahead of those old ones. So the gap that used to be huge between sub $100 mics and $1,000+ mics is much smaller. There was a middle time when the $100- $500 zone was about where the better sub $100 mics are now, and they were a good deal. But today the difference between a better sub $100 mic and a $500 mic is often razor thin. Really top mics have not come down much, so you are still going to have to have some serious change to step into that zone, but at least for production dialog recording there isn't a lot of reason to step into the middle.

There are some exceptions, Shotgun mics for instance. I haven't seen any sub $100 shotguns wort owning, but shotguns are just more expensive in general. So if you bump up a couple of hundred you get into the low priced shotguns.

Another exception would be specialty mics. Production dialog has many limitations that make some of the finer points not so important. You don't need, or often even want, a lot of low end sensitivity. A "weak" low end really is not going to affect dialog (99.99% of the time) and it will cut down on handling noise and wind sensitivity. You also don't need a great high response, anything from 10K to 15K is generally not used much and over 15K is pretty much going to get tossed in post anyway. So a weak high end is not a big deal and may help with sibilance issues and electronic hums etc. Also while quieter is always better, there is so much "noise" in most locations that "good" noise specs on a mic will generally put the mics noise well under the general ambience.

But if you are getting a mic for voice over or FX recording and such then you may want/ need better response, less noise, large diaphragm, etc. In that case you may well find yourself starting off in the middle because you just can't get some of the things you need in the really cheap mics.

The asterisk is that all of this is just my opinions o... And I am talking new prices. There are some great prices on used gear.
 
mainstreetprod said:
I'm in the middle of shooting a feature (my own) and bought an MKH50, planning to hire a boom op and have him use my equipment to avoid rental fees. Predictably he likes his own Sanken CS3E better and is using it on every shot. I'm done with recording my own location sound and very shortly will be selling everything: MKH50, AT 4053A, AT 4073A , Zoom F8, KTEK boompole and shockmount.
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How much for that MKH 50?? I'm in the market for one.
 
I found a used AT875R for $40 last night, so I snatched it up right away. It's barely used and in excellent condition, and I'm happy with it. I think it will make a nice interior dialogue mic, as opposed to my 416.
 
perplexia said:
I found a used AT875R for $40 last night, so I snatched it up right away. It's barely used and in excellent condition, and I'm happy with it. I think it will make a nice interior dialogue mic, as opposed to my 416.
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$40.00!!!??? Nice score. I used mine today on a boom and it is a damn fine sounding mic for the money, I still think it is severely underrated. It doesn't sound as good as a $1,200.00 mic but it sounds better (less colored) than many $400.00 to $800.00 mics IMHO, it's a gem.
 
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puredrifting said:
$40.00!!!??? Nice score. I used mine today on a boom and it is a damn fine sounding mic for the money, I still think it is severaly underrated. It doesn't sound as good as a $1,200.00 mic but it sounds better (less colored) than many $400.00 to $800.00 mics IMHO, it's a gem.
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Ya, I would say so! The guy was selling it for $45, but he said he'd take $40 for it. I couldn't pass up a deal like that!
 
The Audio Technica AT4053 is about as "cheap" as I'd go on an interior Hypercardioid mic. If you can't afford it, then I recommend saving up for it. Your projects will thank you.


OH..keep the 416. The only reason to sell it is if you are retiring and getting rid of all your stuff. That is one mic that I'd never get rid of. Even if you only need it a few times a year, it's such a great workhorse. It's the SM57 of the production world.
 
perplexia said:
I found a used AT875R for $40 last night, so I snatched it up right away. It's barely used and in excellent condition, and I'm happy with it. I think it will make a nice interior dialogue mic, as opposed to my 416.
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Um.... you do realize that you just bought another shotgun mic, yes? According to AT the AT875r is "Audio-Technica’s shortest shotgun microphone". Those slots on the sides are the interference slots (why they call them interference tubes). See how similar they are to the same slots on the 416? These slots are what make the mic more directional, and are also the cause of artifacting from so-called "rapid reflections".

The AT875 is not a hyper. It's a supercardioid-based shotgun. It's going to have the same limitations as an interior microphone as the 416 has. Just sayin'.

That said, the AT875 punches well above it's weight class, it sounds surprisingly good. Now that you have it, you can still consider selling the 416 and buying a good hyper, like the AT4053b, the Audix SCX1-HC, or better.
 
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