Indiana Jones 4

filmguy123 said:
- The rubbing of the tablet would have been destroyed when submerging in petrol. Oh, and the lost catacomb probably would have been found since it opens into a sewer system.
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Oh, I forgot.

The biggest stupidity in Crusade was the catacomb scene, where everything's full of petrol, the grail-keeper guy lighted it up with a match, but before that, Indy walked all through the catacomb with a TORCH and didn't light the petrol.

Impossible, just a small fragment from the torch could fall and ignite everything.


P.S. Sorry, I've had too much coffee today. :)
 
Batutta said:
I think the problem with Crusade goes beyond nitpicking, which all the films can be subjected to. There is a fundamental lack of narrative drive to the movie which stems from the way the story is set up and the stakes involved. At the end of the first ACT in Raiders, the fate of the world hangs in the balance. If the ARK falls into the hands of the Nazis, they could be invincible, and personally for Indy, discovering the Ark would make his career. In Crusade, when he first hears about the cup of christ, he calls it "an old man's dream". The only thing that pushes him forward is when he finds out his father is missing, a strong personal reason, but for an action adventure film, not quite as electrifying as the fate of the world hanging in the balance.
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Certainly agreed that Raiders is the superior film in every way, from narrative, to set pieces, to pacing, to characters. However, I just didn't feel that the areas where Crusade didn't measure up made it a BAD.

As for the motive, I rather liked how they set it up. At first, Indy is disinterested and doesn't believe in this "legend" of the grail - which makes sense for his character. First, even in the first film he tells Marcus that while he believes in the Ark, he says that he doesn't believe in all that hocus-pocus. Well, the legend of the grail revolves around hocus-pocus. It's not so much an archealogical find (heck, its a legendary cup, not a historical object with legendary power), so this makes sense that he would discount it. Further, we learn that his father was obsessed by this legend, which lead to a lot of bitterness towards his dad and would be a turn off to him for this cup.

So at first, the motive revolves around his father - which I liked. But it is to be noted that the motive changes partway through the film, and it's also a point of character development. Connery gives his little speech about how the quest for the grail is a race against evil (after the motorcycle chase), and we see respect growing for the dad (but in a hesitant way) and some character development, peaking at the scene on the beach. And from this point forward the motive feels much the same as Raiders - a race against "the armies of darkness" and they MUST reach the grail before the Nazi's do. That sounds on the same level of intensity to me as the original.


THAT SAID - not perfect by any means. Raiders is better, no doubt. But I didn't think it was bad what they did in Crusade, just not excellent. And overall, I found it really fun because they still took things serious enough and the filmmaking was strong enough. You could say Crusade was half the film Raiders was, and it would still be a compliment.... now if only Crystal Skull could have managed to be HALF the film Crusade was...


karapetkov said:
Oh, I forgot.

The biggest stupidity in Crusade was the catacomb scene, where everything's full of petrol, the grail-keeper guy lighted it up with a match, but before that, Indy walked all through the catacomb with a TORCH and didn't light the petrol.

Impossible, just a small fragment from the torch could fall and ignite everything
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Yes, lots of little details like that, but never enough to take me out of the enjoyment.

Also it drove me nuts how they setup the brilliant idea of releasing the boat out into the river during the castle escape, and instead of letting the Nazi's get in and start driving, Indy busts out of the crate with the motorcycle before they even get a chance to leave. True to Indy's cockiness, but come on, they should have had the Nazis out in the middle of the river in boats and THEN had him drive out... it just took away from the cleverness of his trick....
 
*** SPOILER ****

Oh and the ending of Crystal Skull, reminded me much of the ending of Last Crusade. What was up with the cheese ball thing with Mac laying on the ground as the saucer is winding up and him holding on to Indy's whip. Totally copy of Last Crusade "elsa, give me your other hand, I can't hold on" VS "Mac, you've got to use your feet, I can't pull you on my own"

First, why is he even saving this guy? Second, it was ridiculous. Is Mac even injured? Is he even struggling? He looks like he is just laying there. Third, re-enacting the ending of Last Crusade doesn't make the film more true to Indy, it just makes it feel cheap.
 
filmguy123 said:
And from this point forward the motive feels much the same as Raiders - a race against "the armies of darkness" and they MUST reach the grail before the Nazi's do. That sounds on the same level of intensity to me as the original.
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What will happen if the Nazis get the holy grail?...Hitler might live forever, as long as he doesn't go past the great seal? It's just not as strong, and for an action-adventure film you need a strong motive to propel the story all the way to the climax. Examples - Die Hard; McClane wants to rescue his wife from the clutches of the terrorists. Aliens; Ripley wants to return to the alien planet to exterminate them all. Terminator; Sarah Conner wants to stay alive for the future of humanity. Lord of the Rings; Frodo must destroy the ring of power in the fires of mount doom.
 
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One thing that always bothered me about the character of Jones is that after seeing what he saw in Temple of Doom and Raiders, you would think that he would't be such a skeptical character when it comes to supernatural things.

It's like his character is reset in every film to follow along a similar arc from skepticism to belief. It loses credibility, imo.

For the most part, this is the nature of too many sequels; trying to reproduce the original film in new clothes. It forces the filmmaker to up the ante on the same old story.
 
Batutta said:
What will happen if the Nazis get the holy grail?...Hitler might live forever, as long as he doesn't go past the great seal? It's just not as strong,
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Ah, but you forget they didn't know that you could not go past the great seal until they had the grail and the knight told them. I think Hitler intended for him and his army to drink from it and live forever and "march all over the earth" - even Henry Jones (Connery) believed that. Then, Elsa tried to take the grail past the great seal anyway.
 
Jim Klatt said:
One thing that always bothered me about the character of Jones is that after seeing what he saw in Temple of Doom and Raiders, you would think that he would't be such a skeptical character when it comes to supernatural things.

It's like his character is reset in every film to follow along a similar arc from skepticism to belief.
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Absolutely! Good point, very true. I had the same thought
 
Another thing I noticed. End of Crystal Skull, at the temple, they just show kind of show up and it's like within 10 minutes of real time action (not 10 minutes "film time") they seem to just stumble upon everything and figure it out. The pacing seems ridiculous here, and WAY too easy. The well of the souls felt epic upon discovery with all the trouble. Overcoming the traps in Last Crusade was a huge hurdle.

This time they immediately wondered to the oblisks, smacked the thing open and walla... it would have added so much if the had stood above, surveyed the city, studied some maps, made a plan, had some sense of time passing (like Raider's overnight to dig to get to the well of the souls)... I dunno it just felt too easy and weak and rushed in pacing.

Also when Indy/Mutt come out from the graves and Mac meets them. They step out, Indy says "Hello Mac" and before he can finish the music kicks in and we're moving locals. WEAK! Too fast of pacing, and no character. RAIDERS handled this so much better with Beloq.
 
It's pretty gnarly to think that I like THE MUMMY & THE MUMMY 2 over INDY 3 (and am now worried I'll feel the same about INDY 4)
 
J.R. Hudson said:
It's pretty gnarly to think that I like THE MUMMY & THE MUMMY 2 over INDY 3 (and am now worried I'll feel the same about INDY 4)
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haha oh man if you didn't like Indy 3 just wait till you see Indy 4. National Treasure and The Mummy series put it to shame... (IMO, of course)
 
karapetkov said:
Atlantis is THE THEME for an Indy movie..... And if Lucas wants so much these aliens, they can hide them into the plot as the ancient "gods" of the atlanteans or something.
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Absolutely. We always see the artifact, be it the ark, grail, sankara stones... but never the POWER BEHIND that artifact (ie GOD). So why in the world do we see the aliens?? It takes away that mystery, and SKULL isn't true to the series in this way.
 
filmguy123 said:
Yes, lots of little details like that, but never enough to take me out of the enjoyment.
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Don't get me wrong, I love Crusade, despite all the little stupidities.

One of the few good things about [the end of] communism, was that there were super-cheap movie tickets. I was a kid-idiot then [when the movie was released] and I went a good 15 times at the cinema to see Crusade. One day I remember I went three times: once with my class-mates, once with other kids from the 'hood and in the evening - again with my family. So much fun.

Those were golden days, the anarchy was all around and you could do anything you want and get into forbidden places.... um, well...

... those were golden days. :)

Also it drove me nuts how they setup the brilliant idea of releasing the boat out into the river during the castle escape, and instead of letting the Nazi's get in and start driving, Indy busts out of the crate with the motorcycle before they even get a chance to leave. True to Indy's cockiness, but come on, they should have had the Nazis out in the middle of the river in boats and THEN had him drive out... it just took away from the cleverness of his trick....
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Yeah, but it would have added an extra 30-40 sec. of them waiting [producers want the shortest film possible] and would probably have interrupted the fast pace of that sequence.

It would have been the smarter thing, but not very "popcorn", you know?


Just my 2 popping corns. :)
 
karapetkov said:
Yeah, but it would have added an extra 30-40 sec. of them waiting [producers want the shortest film possible] and would probably have interrupted the fast pace of that sequence.

It would have been the smarter thing, but not very "popcorn", you know?
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True, but on the other hand it wouldn't/shouldn't have had to be shown in real-time.

Haha, 3 times in the theater in one day... amazing! :)
 
filmguy123 said:
Absolutely. We always see the artifact, be it the ark, grail, sankara stones... but never the POWER BEHIND that artifact (ie GOD). So why in the world do we see the aliens?? It takes away that mystery, and SKULL isn't true to the series in this way.
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Yeah, totally. The power has to be invisible, cause it is invisible (in the real world). :)

Good point.

God or aliens, you could believe in them but noone knows for sure. So it's unrealistic to show them too much on screen. And it takes away from the mystery.

In Raiders this is perfect, cause noone actually knows anything about the Ark at the end.

Just that it's made of gold, that it carries some weird sand inside and that it kills Nazis. :)

Atlantis will be tough, cause "the Atlantis" will be the ultimate mystery, and not some artifact... Maybe they can invent some artifact that would help Indy find Atlantis.

Oohh, it definitely should be Atlantis, I say we start a petition and send the results to Spielberg. :)


P.S. And for the record, I believe in God and the aliens. :cheesy:
 
filmguy123 said:
Haha, 3 times in the theater in one day... amazing! :)
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Ye man, tickets were really cheap and people were invading the theaters.

The same with Die Hard. We were at the cinema all day :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG).

But these bastards made some dirty deal and sold my favorite theater for peanuts. I wanna hurt them.

It was 10 min. away from home, a huge hall, etc.

Now it's some kind of stupid store. :embarasse

Damn, am I the only one that hates multi-plex-es.
 
filmguy123 said:
Ah, but you forget they didn't know that you could not go past the great seal until they had the grail and the knight told them. I think Hitler intended for him and his army to drink from it and live forever and "march all over the earth" - even Henry Jones (Connery) believed that. Then, Elsa tried to take the grail past the great seal anyway.
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But it's never stated that the grail will make them invincible. Capable of long life maybe, but not impervious to bullets. The story Indy relates says the Knight came out of the canyon and then died of extreme old age. This is the dialogue from the script--

INDY
The Arthur Legend. I've heard
this bedtime story before.

DONOVAN
Eternal life, Doctor Jones! The
gift of youth to whoever drinks
from the Grail.
(beat)
Oh, now that's a bedtime story I'd
like to wake up to!

And then this--

INDY
I've heard this one as well.
Two of these brothers walked out
of the desert one hundred and
fifty years after having found
the Grail and began the long
journey back to France. But
only one of them made it. And
before dying of extreme old
age, he supposedly imparted
his tale to a-to a Franciscan
friar, I think.
 
Right, I remember the dialogue, but it also nowhere states that it wouldn't make someone invincible... it was unknown... if a knight dies of extreme old age, it might be reasonable to assume that he might have been invincible, or healed quickly... its not stated either way. Lets not forget the grail heals Indy's dad of the bullet wound...

Besides, even without a "race against evil", I still find the driving factor sufficiently motivating - his father's life long quest... the pursuit of a piece of history... lets not forget Indy's "it belongs in a museum!" and love of history/archeology. It's better motive than ToD's IMO.

Of course, there's still no question - RAIDERS' motive is still superior... as is pretty much everything in that film.
 
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