Increased latitude of HVX?

Technology has a way of surprising us sometimes. I would bet the Dynamic range will be at least one stop greater than the DVX and probably just shy of the Varicam. The 4:1:1 color space of DV severly limits it's ability to hold a wide contrast range. And the DSP in the HVX will be very powerful. Look at the Nikon D2x. I has the smallest pixel pitch of any still camera. But it still has better dynamic range (Over a stop) than my D70. It's gonna be great.
 
Where does this idea that the colour space stops the camera having a wide dynamic range? The dynamic range is based on the capability of the camera head.

The chroma and luma sampling does limit things in other areas, but if you look at DV it only affects certain colour ranges. But it has nothing to do with dynamic range in terms of how well the camera handles the difference between light and dark. I think you are mistaking what you have seen from prosumer cameras with the capabilty of the format.

You're forcing me to use xdcam as an example again darn you! Take the PDW510 and PDW530. One only records to DVCAM format, and the other records to IMX mpeg which is almost as good as Digibeta. Both cameras use exactly the same camera head. Both cameras can record exactly the same dynamic range (the diffierence between light and dark). One just compresses the signal more than the other, but as well as that the camera heads subsample all the info before the compression takes place. Sure, you DO have more to play with in a 4:2:2 signal, but unless you do heavy colour correction or compositing you probably wouldn't know.
 
The NTSC standard limits dynamic range quite a bit....so there is more potential in HD.

I think it's all about the DSP, but Bill Kennedy told me that panasonic was working on improving smaller chips, so I expect it will be as good as the dvx, if not slightly better.

The varicam has no where NEAR 11 stops of dynamic range. I'd be surprised if it had anything more than 8. Six and a half seems to be more than the DVX has, too but that's closer.
 
Sure, but we don't all live in an NTSC world :)
What I'm getting at is that the latitude of the DVX is not a representation of the limits of the DV format. High end full size DV25 cameras have far more contrast latitude.
 
True, but so too does the realstream have much more dynamic range than the dvx. High end cameras also have more impressive DSPs I assume. There are so many factors affecting dynamic range that it's really hard to predict for the HVX.
 
I think I read different kinds of film had between 8-10 stops. The thing is, film seems to lose a lot of detail in the shadows and retain a lot in the highlights (different sized grain..smaller grains capture highlight detail). dSLRs seem to have more shadow detail but less highlight detail with a tendency for blow outs. And they both have different color response and gamma curves.

The new high-end full frame sensor cameras seem to have 10-12 stops of dynamic range, and medium format digital backs have 12+. Looks like digital eventually will exceed film. (I read somewhere that the human eye had 7 stops of dynamic range...oddly, it seems to be superior to anything else.)
 
Policar,
Respectfully--in my experience I have witnessed 11 stops of dynamic range with VariCam. Panasonic only claims it will do 10. The best negative film (ie: Vision2 IE200) can handle around 12-13 stops.

While it's generally true to say negative films handle overexposure better than underexposure, this is also changing with Vision2. It's possible to pull one or maybe two stops from shadows now, which until recently wasn't even possible. Kodak is delivering better film than ever before. They have continued scientific development which is why they keep getting better and better. Remember, we have Kodak to thank for many "video" achievements, for example the Bayer pattern was created by Kodak scientist Dr. Bruce Bayer.

The human eye has a theoretical contrast range of 30,000 to 1 or stated in dynamic range approximately 15 stops. Hope this helps,

brian wells
 
That does help. 15 stops for the human eye makes a lot of sense. 11 stops with varicam still sounds hard to believe (I saw blown out highlights in a not-too-hard-exposure) but I've never really worked with it.
 
The new super16mm stocks are killer too.

Rampant speculation, but I'll bet this cam is about 7-8 stops. Better than dv, but limited by the 1/3 chips.
 
Well, quite honestly 11 stops on a VariCam IS hard to believe. It blows the doors off every single other HD camera I know of. I think the Panasonic site has the Goodman's Guide camera setups for download (only useful if you have a camera to load them into) but there are also screenshots that show the various looks for VariCam and SDX900. They are all stunning.
 
Not sure how you're calculating your latitude ranges. I know first-hand that Sony HDW-F900s blow out pretty darn quick even with the auto knee cranked up. Nothing I've seen retains any exposure detail in the highlights past two or three stops over key. To clarify, when performing exposure tests for myself, I typically get the most attractive light-skinned female I can find, and do both interior and daylight exterior exposure tests. I'll set my iris to expose for the caucasian skin tone as hot as I can before I lose any detail in her face. Then, I'll start opening up my iris until everything goes to crap. Video has often been compared with reversal film--it blows out fast in the highlights. Video tends to have more latitude in the lower part of the curve (toe) than film, but no video camera I've ever seen has ever met or exceeded the latitude of film negative on the upper part (shoulder) of the characteristic curve.
 
You guys are forgetting the different setups. Dynamic range can be increased drastically by adjustment of the cameras setup menues. This is something that Alan Roberts specialises in. A lot depends on the camera head, and what you end up with is a fairly flat looking image (very grey blacks and dulled highlights), but what this means is that you have a lot to play with in post. So no, the Varicam might not have 11 stops out of the box on a default setting, but its range can be drastically increased with adjustment. This is in keeping with raw film stock. People often associate filmlook with what stuff looks like after grading etc. If you saw what film looked like straight out of the camera I think many people would be shocked!
 
Exactly, Simon. VariCam has two main rec. modes: video rec. and film rec.
video rec. is WYSIWYG and film rec. is a greatly reduced contrast version that appears normal
after a film out. out of the box, film rec. will do a 10 stop range.. there are certain things
you can do in video rec. to tweak it up a notch to 11 and still have WYSIWYG monitoring.

...as i understand it.
 
Didn't know about the film-out modes on the Varicam. I'll be shooting with an SDX900 for a short film soon (but my only distribution medium will be DVD--will never print to film). Does the SDX900 have this mode as well?
 
..its not so hard to believe 11 stops from varicam. i dont know its specs, so i couldnt confirm or deny the exposure range.. but i wouldnt discount it just because its just as much as film. the dalsa can push 13.. which is more than most film stocks.

people tend to just thin that video cant have as much lattitude as film.. but it can. in fact it can have alot more.
 
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