Inaccurate Color Display during Color Correction

B

banksie312

Well-known member
Hey Guys,
I've been searching and reading about getting the correct colors to be displayed while color correction. Let me explain the issue I'm having, then let you know what I know and can or cannot do, then maybe someone can help me out.

I'm having issues getting the colors that I see on my computer to match those of a TV after say a DVD is burned. To answer questions before they arise, no I have not professionally adjusted the color of my monitor to those of television. I have tried, but it is either too simple, or there are too many options and after reading I still can't quite get a handle on it. What I have been using to check my colors on is a consumer LCD TV run through a FW400 through my deck. I have almost completely abandoned this method though because it is giving me incorrect results. Instead, recently I have been hooking my computer up (DVI to VGA adapter) to my 1080i television to check colors. This method is good, but not perfect. When I burn the same exact file to a DVD, the tones get much more saturated (mostly in the skin tones). So this is not a very reliable way to test colors either.

I understand that a broadcast NTSC monitor is great, or using external scopes, however, I cannot afford either at this point. (side note question, when working in HD as I will be in the near future, will an NTSC broadcast monitor still display information correctly? Wouldn't one want to have an HDTV to display on, perhaps after calibration?

Since I cannot really afford this right now, is there a way to change the color and gamma of my computer monitor to be CLOSE to that of a television displaying DVD content? I know that there are "eye"s that can help color correct your monitor and things of this nature, but I have not seen or heard of a lot of video/film people using them (mostly photo).

I know there are a lot of questions in here and I wrote an awful lot, but I wanted to avoid unnecessary questions and ensure I wouldn't waste anyone's time. I appreciate the responses everyone, thanks.

EDIT: I put this in hardware because I believe it will have a lot to do with the hardware I am using...if an admin comes across this and wants to move it, it may be better suited in another subsection.
 
Last edited:
you can hire someone to calibrate your monitor for you. They'll use one of those hardware light meter things that they attach to your monitor and then they'll create a color profile for your monitor. You can buy these calibraters yourself for around $200 which is handy as you'll need to calibrate often as monitors change over time.
 
There are a lot of issues here.

First, the color space used by your computer's desktop and software is not the same as what is going to tape or going to DVD. Quicktime is even worse as a desktop player. And while you haven't specified your platform and editing software, I'll use FCP as an example. FCP's color space is a proxy and is terribly inaccurate for color correction.

Second, color correcting on a ocnsumer TV is not going to help. Consumer TVs are optimized for displaying content from broadcast facilities (which have signal processing) and from commercially-produced DVDs, both of which assume properly-adjusted source material. The only way to really "see" what you're seeing is by an external broadcast monitor. You can find some good deals on used broadcast monitors right now.

Third, without scopes you are flying blind. The broadcast monitor is going to let you see subtleties within the legal limits, but won't necessarily tell you when things are outside of the legal limits. That's where the scopes come in. Again, deals on used Tektronix scopes are out there. But even if you can't find one, FCP has scopes available in the Tools menu. If you aren't using FCP, I'm not sure what you have available.

DVD compression is going to affect the image, and will most certainly bring out problems that are outside of target color values that the scopes would show. If you have everything within the limits (IRE is below 100, none of the colors is oversaturated), then you will still see a difference after compression for DVD but it will not be drastic.
 
C2V - Thanks for the response.
I completely forgot to include I am running OSX editing with FCP6 and doing color correction in Apple's Color. I always have my Scopes, Waveform Monitor, and RGB Parade on, however, I am not very skilled in reading these. I thought that I would need a separate scopes piece of hardware. If it is a part of both FCP and Color, then things really change. Sounds like you know a lot about this, are there any starting off points or tutorials you would suggest, or basically just google it and read as much as possible (usually what I do anyway)?
Thanks for the response, very helpful.

As a side question I am just addressing again, is using a broadcast NTSC SD monitor really worth it if in the near future I will begin editing almost solely in HD? I would assume that the mere fact that I wouldn't be seeing all the pixels would be an issue. I have a friend that is selling a used broadcast monitor for fairly cheap, I am just wondering if I will have it for a few months, switch to HD, and then have no use for it.
Thanks everyone
 
Here's a great tutorial to get you familiar with your scopes: http://macmediacast.com/2006/12/final-cut-pro-video-scopes-tutorial/

I wouldn't worry about a monitor becoming obsolete. It's going to be a while before everything is exclusively HD. And even if you do go HD, you always have a down-converted SD out that you can use, and the colors won't be off. And some of the last generations of Sony PVM monitors had card slots for SDI in, meaning that you could stay in the digital realm.

EDIT: Just checked that link, and the video is no longer available. Here's another:

http://creativemac.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=63662
 
Last edited:
Thanks C2V, this is exactly what I was looking for.
Just as a way to assist my computer to look similar to the broadcast monitor (even though it wont look perfect) would using an "eye" just to get the colors correct be worth it? I may have access to one for free and figure I might as well just to have the correct colors in terms of my computer screen, even though they are guaranteed to be different than broadcast.
Thanks again.
 
If you're comparing what you see in Color's Preview window with what you end up with on a broadcast monitor then you're not going to be very happy with the results.

The preview window isn't at all accurate because the Mac's video card isn't translating the color values the way a broadcast monitor would.

In order to do this with any hope of getting it right, you'll need to output to a broadcast monitor through something like a Decklink or Kona card.

Meanwhile, do some research to find out how to read a waveform monitor and vector scope. The ones built into Color are supposed to be quite good, so that's a big plus. But even if you learn the intricacies of reading scopes, you still need a good color reference monitor, and a properly set up viewing environment, to get it right.
 
DCSensui, is there a way to have Color preview the video through a deck hooked up to a broadcast monitor? I feel like this would make sense, but then again I am entering a new realm of editing and it's a bit over my head at this point, I'm just trying to catch up. Would using a broadcast monitor through my deck (via FW400) not work with Color, or for some reason not give an accurate image?
I've been reading a lot about Waveform monitors and vector scopes and am slowly getting there.

thanks for the help so far guys, I have way more questions than I initially imagined haha.
 
Color doesn't support preview over firewire (except the ioHD)... it requires an I/O card like the Intensity Pro, Decklink, Kona 3/LHi, etc.

btw, as another bbanks I can't help but feel a sense of competition... good thing I'm on the west coast.

There can be only one!
 
Banksie...

As bigbossbmb said, going via Firewire to a deck might not be an answer either. For example, the DSR-20 outputs analog video without the proper setup for American television. The blacks are at zero IRE when it should be at 7.5 IRE.

An intermediate solution would be to get the lower-priced Kona or Decklink cards and use the composite or component outputs to connect a conventional broadcast CRT (which are becoming harder to find), or a decent LCD TV. It won't be ideal but it's better than trying to guess at color correction and using "Kentuky windage" in hopes of nailing the target.

You could double-check by outputting bars and seeing if the setup displays the black pluge properly as well as the bars. If the monitor doesn't have a "blue only" setting you can simulate it by observing through a certain type of blue gel.

For my own setup I just had to bite the bullet and invest in decent equipment. My 14" Sony monitor isn't HD but it's color-accurate and that's what I rely upon to get the relative colors correct for now. And for detail I rely upon the 23" Apple Cinema display. Eventually I'll invest in an FSI monitor which has been reported as being color-accurate and a great value for the money. I'll probably have to settle for the grade-2 version (http://www.shopfsi.com/FSI_24_Inch_Broadcast_Monitor_p/lm-2430w.htm $3,500). But it will be a whole lot better than what I'm using right now.

BTW, whatever you do, don't attempt to calibrate your monitor if you're using Color. If you use a calibration setting other than the factory default, Color's "preview" window will cease working. Lots of complaints all over the user forums about that one, and I was lucky to stumble across the way to avoid it.
 
Thanks for all the info guys. I appreciate the help. Not sure 100% what I'm going to do at this point as I really can't afford to set myself up properly, but I think I will start reading about all the tools like waveform monitors, scopes, etc. to get the technical understanding...then hopefully I will have figured out a way to fund it haha. Thanks again.
 
Help!! Color Correcting on HDTV?

Help!! Color Correcting on HDTV?

I've read a lot and haven't found a convincing answer regarding the possibility to use an LCD TV to color grade. Can't afford professional monitor, otherwise I would use that since I know the advantages from past experiences.

I'm using a SAMSUNG 22" HDTV (LB460), and feeding it an HDMI signal from Final Cut 6 out of BlackMagic's Intensity Pro card. I got swatch books from Lee and Rosco but haven't found one that actually filters out everything but blue.
I've also found contradicting methods on calibration, where sometimes they recommend to start by adjusting the PLUGE bars, and others leave that setting after doing chroma and hue first.

I've read about two possible items as well:
The DIGITAL VIDEO ESSENTIALS DVD or a software/hardware thing called PANTONE HUYE PRO, but don't know if any of these will actually make broadcast accurate calibration.

I'm editing 720p24 DVCPRO HD footage on a 720p time line. FCP includes HD 720p60 Bars and Tone, but somewhere I read I should use only the bars signal out of the camera I used. Anyone knows if this is true and critical? And... are there differences between SMPTE SD and HD bars?

Lastly, I have no clue what the factory settings are for the white point or color temperature of my set. I understand I should make sure it's at 6500K vs the 9300K setting that usually consumer TVs are set to, but don't know how to do it or how to check this.

I know these are too many questions, but I'm lost here as you can see even though I've done nothing but research for the last week. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
 
Thanks. That makes sense... the trick will be correcting badly shot footage (too under exposed and such). I will be able to tell if it's within scopes, but there could still be a lot of noise or such that a calibrated monitor would help to try and fix the image the best possible.
What I did is calibrate the LCD HDTV the best i could and wish it turns alright when I master and show in different monitors and screens.
For the record, in case someone else finds themselves in a similar situation... I learned that the Digital Video Essentials DVD is not recommended since it's a good tool to calibrate your screen but ONLY good for the signal sent by your DVD/BlueRay player... but once you feed the signal out of your computer, that DVD calibration won't serve you, you need to calibrate to the bars out of your computer (or camera your original footage was shot with).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top