Importance of time code?

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xhridhar

Active member
I am considering Pix 220 vs 240. Now 220 doesn't have a time code while 240 does. So that raises a question in my mind. How important is it to have timecode? It appears that there are a lot of more economical recorders that are available than 744T (granted lesser quality) such as Tascam P2 HD but without time code.

After reading a lot of posts here, I am now considering Pix 240 only because it is much cheaper than 744T and the fact it gives me an added advantage of video recording as well (although my main video recording will be done via blackmagic design as I need 4.4.4).

So the two questions I have now are:

1. Is the audio quality of PIX 240 any where near 744T?
2. How important is time code? (if it is not that important, I can consider Tascam as an option)

Many thanks
 
Couple things...
1. The Pix 240 maxes out at 48k, while the 744T can go up to 192k (not a big deal for production sound, for FX that would often be a deal breaker). The 744T also seems like it would give you more options and easy access to controls.
2. The HD-P2 has timecode, from what I've read a while back though, it's not 100% stable like SD gear is. Whether or not you need timecode, I think, depends on your specific workflow. Honestly I'm not even 100% certain how the Pix recorders are designed to fit into the workflow.
 
Gohanto said:
Couple things...
1. The Pix 240 maxes out at 48k, while the 744T can go up to 192k (not a big deal for production sound, for FX that would often be a deal breaker). The 744T also seems like it would give you more options and easy access to controls.
2. The HD-P2 has timecode, from what I've read a while back though, it's not 100% stable like SD gear is. Whether or not you need timecode, I think, depends on your specific workflow. Honestly I'm not even 100% certain how the Pix recorders are designed to fit into the workflow.
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I was planning to do all FX in post. Is that a bad idea?
 
xhridhar said:
I was planning to do all FX in post. Is that a bad idea?
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There are things that may be easier and/or cheaper to record on your own, rather than resorting to a pre-recorded FX library. For recording FX, it's often better to record at a higher sample rate, which gives much more latitude for audio post-production (plug-ins, filters, etc.). If all you plan to do is dialog, then anything above 48kHz is generally overkill. Having the extra space to work in case there are FX you decide to record is worth the investment.

Like Gohanto, I'm also not sure how the Pix recorders are intended to fit into workflow.
 
Well, speaking from a post perspective, I would put TC very low on the list. But there are workflows that it is important in so you probably need to define more what your planning on doing.

There is a move toward recording FX at higher sample rates. For somethings it makes sense, and if your planning on selling them or doing a lot of manipulation with them then it has advantages. But 99% of post sound (for films with a sound budget) in the US is done in Protools and Pro Tools doesn't support mixed sample rates so you would have to convert on input. So it makes more sense from a "design" stand point than an editors stand point. Films are edited at 48/16 (or 24) so that is what the sounds will be used at.

Yes you should do your FX work in post. That doesn't mean that you (or your sound person) won't be recording them.

All that said if you aren't going to be recording video with it then don't use a video recorder to record sound. The Tascam would be a better choice, or the 702, 722 etc.
 
Noiz2 said:
Well, speaking from a post perspective, I would put TC very low on the list.
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That really depends on the project. I put TC very high on my list, especially stuff that is shot on timecode capable cameras. It's very helpful for post dailies sync (which is one thing the Pix 240 is great for...instant dailies), and reference just in case the are drift/sync issues. It's kind of the thing that is supposed to keep everyone in check, and if stuff is going south, you can look at timecode to help diagnose the problem.

In terms of sound design, I ALWAYS would have a timecode burn put in the picture. I did this for a couple of reasons. One, to make sure the framerate was what I was told it was. Two, to double check sync with my pro tools system...and a second check of the framerate being correct. Third, to cover my rear end in case someone claims what I give them is out of sync or the wrong frame rate.

Let me put it another way.....

I spent 3 1/2 years as a product specialist at Coffey Sound. I gave support to projects ranging from the no-budget indie shorts all the way up to big buget union features and tv shows. I would ALWAYS tell the production mixer, post people, and whoever would listen to use timecode and how to use it. When they didn't listen to me, I would get calls with sync issues. When they would listen, everything went smoothly. But, it's a different world out there now. People are shooting on DSLR's, which don't have timecode right now, so people treat it like film. Budgets are getting smaller. Consumer gear is getting better.

My advice is, if you can afford to get TC capable gear, get it. You may not need the capability all the time, but there may be some gigs offered to you where you will need it, and having it will be worth it, and everyone will thank you for it.
 
Well first off I did say that there are work flows where it's important. But in 15 years or so in post sound working on everything from micro budget student films to major block busters I've only worked on one where the production sound had TC on it. However many of the bigger films were earlier on so things might have changed a bit. For lower budget stuff nobody is working with TC cameras so it's pretty much a wank.

As for post a TC burn doesn't nec have anything to do with actual TC and it has nothing to do with production TC. Well that isn't nec. true, they can burn roll Tc in a separate place. It's fine if it's there but what I have found over the years is that unless it's coming from a place that really knows what they are doing it can be completely wrong.

Now when I started out TC was gold, but we were syncing to tape (or film). With file based workflows TC is only your start mark, it is not a constant stream of TC. So you won't see the drift like you used to. On a DA88 you could watch the two TC scourges drift out and you knew you had a problem. With file based it gets a start # and counts on it's own.

Now in theory the window burn is useful for all of what you said but only if it actually represents reality. And with low budget and student films that is often not the case.

Quick case in point. FCP defaults to drop frame and very few editors (with out some gray hairs) will change that. If you can get them to offset the TC to where it should be (FFOA starting at 01:00:00:00) and you bring that into PT you will be off. Why? Because FCP counts DF differently than every other app in the world.

Anyway doing lots of shorts and low budget features and 240 or so ads, once we stopped using tape we stopped using TC for anything but a way to reference positions in the project for notes. Even with tape 1/2 the editorial houses gave us either bad TC or no TC. I got in to an argument with one because we were digitizing by that point so it didn't stop us but there was no TC on their tape. They saw the ABS TC and were insisting that that was TC. THey got to the mix and we were fine but... They had to go redo their tape because ah, it didn't have any TC on it. This was something like a Calvin Kline ad so it wasn't a no name editorial house, the owner just had no clue about TC.

Anyway I love TC. It's very cool and I have a crate full of Horita boxes and I can give you window burns in TC or F+F, read and write VITC and LTC, analyze it and fix it. But I havent turned on one of those boxes in close to ten years.


Back to the OP.

IF your setting up to work freelance as a sound mixer then by all means get TC. If not having it costs you one job you didn't save any money. But you then also need to get something other than the PIX because that wont swing as a production recorder.

You as a rule don't need TC but if your working you NEED what people want you to have and some WILL want you to have TC. That they want it may be a wank (I have seen ads wanting a mixer with TC for DSLR student shoots) but it's better to have it and get the gig, than try to convince them they are wrong.

If your on your own projects then look into it and see if it works into your work flow or not.

The Tascam is sort of a 1/2 way spot. It locks to TC but doesn't generate. But if you get a TC source it will jam to it so it's very TC ready.

If your setting up in a stationary location (sounded like you were going to a computer with the vid) you could also look into BoomRecorder. Lots of tracks, accepts TC and will jam and free run and it's software. Very stable and inexpensive, but needs a Mac and an interface to run on. Still a lot less that a recorder IF you have the Mac.
 
Steve House said:
Like a parachute, it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
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AS a production mixer I agree 100%
As a post person I get squeamish.

I have on more than one occasion been handed a bunch of production sound with TC and a cut film and been expected to make them magically conform because "they used TC". The problem in those cases is that they didn't actually use TC they recorded TC on the sound, and whatever the camera put on the video and now we are in post with a cut film and no connection at all with the original files. At this point they are generally stuck with their scratch track except where it's really bad because they don't have the budget and they don't want to take the time to go back and manually sync everything in the NLE.

In the low budget world nobody seems to really understand TC (and all too often workflow) and they think it's some magic sync fixer.

So for prospective production mixers go get that TC box.

For low budget directors and producers, either learn the workflow (and that means your using the TC to sync in the NLE, and your jam syncing everything on a regular basis) or just forget TC exists and go old school.
 
And Dave,

I'm not saying your wrong, just relating my experience in my little niche of the biz. It's fairly wide but it's also been almost exclusively in the Bay Area. One thing I do know is that workflows vary a bit by location so we could both be 100% correct in our areas.

Lesson is, as with all answers, YMMV.
 
Many thanks to all of you for your responses. I have learnt a lot.

I am not a sound person or intending to be one. I am (Director + Producer) and as I am going to shoot my feature mostly in Serbia where it is not easy to find sound persons with their own equipment or easily find rentals, I need to purchase from here to take it there. Hence my questions to keep it economical and at the same time not screw up on the audio as I realize how important it is.

Right now, my planned kit looks like this:

Tascam DR - 680 ( planning to purchase this) - connected to a k-tek boom + Sanken CS3e + NTG -2
Zoom h4N - ( already have this) - connected to 2 wireless Senheiser G3 lavs (planning to buy these) . Maybe TC can come out of zoom?

I believe a mixer is also important and so need to figure the best economical option for that.

I am hoping that this kit will serve my needs. Most of the film is being shot indoors on greenscreen.

Please let me know you think if this is sufficient or is it more of a ' bare minimal kit' ? Of course I appreciate that I might not have given adequate information.
 
Noiz2,

You make some really great, and important points.

First, the Pix240 shouldn't be considered a primary recording device. When I played with it at NAB, I was thinking "this is a great video village tool, or maybe a great tool for the production sound mixer to have as a 'just in case everything goes to hell' sort of backup". It's amazing what that little box can do.

Regarding timecode in general...yeah, when people get it wrong, it tends to hurt more than help. I have seen SO many features and tv shows get off to a rocky start because people just don't know what they are doing. I'm talking union stuff here where people should know what's up. I like the timecode burn in because it's kind of a "check" on whether someone is really paying attention or not. You are right, it really has nothing to do with the production timecode at all. It's just something I got used to working with when I started out as an intern, and I've always felt comfortable that way. About half of the things I've done that timecode burn in has caught a screw up on someone's part.

But yeah, people will eventually want it, so it's better to have it than not.
 
xhridhar said:
Zoom h4N - ( already have this) - connected to 2 wireless Senheiser G3 lavs (planning to buy these) . Maybe TC can come out of zoom?
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The Zoom is not a TC generator. It looks like it is based on the read out, but in a way that is an arbitrary number, it's its own "timecode". So, no it wont jam sync a camera or be a master TC source or TC slave. The Tascam P2, on the other hand will be a TC slave, as mentioned. So if the camera you will using can be set to "TC master", it would be a good pair. Or.........just get a TC Generator that can output to your devices that can accept TC.

But if you can swing it, as expensive as they are, I HIGHLY recommend the SD 702T or better. Just make sure it has the "T" at the end of the name.

And for the most part, I agree that TC is not so vital, assuming you are not doing long takes, and everyone is on the same page on recording formats. Sample rate/bitdepth/framerates. I have seen too many long takes that have audio drift because someone didn't set their equipment up right and match.
 
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Doc Bernard said:
And for the most part, I agree that TC is not so vital, assuming you are not doing long takes, and everyone is on the same page on recording formats. Sample rate/bitdepth/framerates. I have seen too many long takes that have audio drift because someone didn't set their equipment up right and match.
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TC in non analog formats is a positional reference only not a clocking one so it won't help at all with drift. If we are talking digital formats here ,and I'm going to go way out on a limb and assume we are ;~), then you need Word Clock if you want to protect yourself from drift.

And as you mention, indirectly, get your people to set the standard for your project and make people stick to it.

A point that is between the lines of all the responses that should really be put out in the open is, What you need and should use is part of pre production.

Before your close to a set or have even cast you should sit down with your key crew (including post sound) and decide on a game plan. Depending on the work flow you may need TC, you may need tri level sync, or you might be able to free run. There are a number of factors that go into what you should do and they are not the same film to film. If your picture editor is set up and knows how to use TC to sync dailies fast then that becomes a big factor. If nobody has the gear or the need to use TC then that affects what you need. Everything that people have said is valid here but none of them is universal.

Which is why if your selling your self as a production mixer you should be able to do TC (and understand it).
If your a director/ producer get your team in a room and have them decide what you need, they are the ones who need to agree on a work flow.
 
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