I'm sorry, but WHAT??

Darren Levine

Darren Levine

Veteran
I started with sony, i've had a good time with sony, but they've fallen off the radar for me, mostly the form factors pushed me away, but reading about what people will have to do to get 4k out of the 700 is just plain silly...

let me see if i've got this strait, and please correct me if i don't, remember, i'm off the radar: not only do you need an external recorder which costs not much less than the 700 itself, but you also need an interface just to let that recorder and the camera talk to one another? and the two together literally costing more than the camera itself?? do i have that right? because someone is taking crazy pills, and i was pretty sure doc didn't let me have any more of those.


i Feel bad for the 700 users, it's obviously a fantastic camera, but sony was rather unforthcoming and borderline misleading when they were advertising that it would be 4k capable/ready. had they told buyers up front about these extra costs, i think many would have ran for the hills. might as well go for a battle tested scarlet!

and now having black magic showing that there's no voodoo involved in having such abilities built into the camera, i just don't see what some of the bigger players are thinking they can get away with. two different beasts and abilities, but still, nonsensical
 
How many productions really need 4K RAW though? The ones that do will have the budget. I have a FS700 and to be honest besides not having the LCD on the side and being able to dial in ISO and a few little things I have Slow-motion and that is what I bought it for. Could I have bought a FS100 nope as I need ND-FIlters. I had a C100 and sold it out of frustration as I had no Slow-motion on it. There's the Odessey 7Q that will be out soon and if I need 4K raw I'll buy that. To be honest shooting a Quinceanera/Wedding in 4K Raw is not a wise decision. The FS700 would still sell well even if Sony disclosed all the info in the beginning imo. I would've purchased one as it's the only on the market that does what I need. The AF100 was close but low resolute image quality and limited lowlight function caused me to switch cams.
 
To be honest, DL, I couldn't disagree more. (Politely, of course. :D)

I owned both the C300 and the C100 at different times, in addition to both the Epic and Scarlet. There are/were things I loved about each one. But none of them really worked for ALL of my shooting needs. The C-Cameras couldn't shoot 1080p slow-mo, but offered great 24p images with fantastic ergonomics/usability. The Epic delivered killer resolution and high frame rates, but I don't always need the extra K, and the price tag hurts. The Scarlet didn't really fit the bill either, mainly because of the lack of high frame rates without windowing the sensor. Epic and Scarlet also aren't the most light-sensitive cameras. (There are other cameras I could mention, but I need to get back to work.)

Enter the FS700.

It's got the high frame rates I need. It's got a sensor that's extremely clean at higher ISOs. It gives up some of the ergonomic comfort of the C100, sure, with controls that are awkwardly-placed and in a less than ideal form factor for hand-held work. And it's at a great price point for what it offers. It's not perfect, but no camera is.

Now, as far as 2K/4K options go, let's look at what we have…

The Epic is top of the list, but at a price. Scarlet is a great tool, but again, you do have to make some trade-offs.

The C500 is out there, but I don't think it makes any sense to spend $25K on a camera that requires an external recorder for 4K.

The F5 and F55 are shaping up to be great cameras, but again, you'll need to spend an additional sum to get the best 4K out of these cameras, I believe.

The BMPCC isn't available, so there's not much to really say about it yet. But at the price point, it certainly could fill a niche for those who need 4K at a good price.

So, while Sony's upgrade to allow the FS700 might seem pricey, you get a lot of bang for that buck, especially if you go with the Convergent Odyssey recorder. Yes, there's going to be some kind of firmware upgrade needed, which you'll have to get from Sony, and it won't be cheap. But it will allow you to connect the Odyssey, and record 2K RAW at up to 240fps (if the internet is telling the truth), and 4K compressed in DNxHD or (in the future) ProRes. If it costs $7-8K to make this possible, it's still a screaming deal considering what the camera is able to deliver, especially when you consider what the competition is offering.

What the FS700 really gives you is a shooting tool that ticks almost all of the boxes needed for high-quality 1080p shooting, while also giving you the potential to shoot 2K/4K RAW when you need it in the future (for a price), without having to move to a completely new camera system. I'd say that's a pretty good upgrade path for those who need/want 2K/4K.
 
I shoot a lot with Canon cameras and a little bit with Sony ones; I think it's extraordinary that you can upgrade the FS700 to 4K. Try doing that with a C100/C300...
 
i should have been a bit more specific :)

all valid points, though it's still very clear that the fs700's main selling point is of course the incredible slow motion. i wasn't referring to that or any other part of it's capable self, just the 4k upgrade part. more specifically, the part where you can't just plug in sony's recorder, you have to first plug in another module just to get the two to talk together. i would like to think that there's a good reason they couldn't offer a single module to do the job, but these days we have a lot to compare to, such as the upcomming bmcproduction, which if i'm not mistaken is a fair bit smaller than the 700, but has everything capable inside. and it's a fair comparison since they're both slated to be available by july (BM is promising no shipping hassles....)

if the odessy works with no other middleman hardware, then fantastic, it's a good option. it makes the point i'm making about sony all the more relevant (unless of course i AM missing an important piece of info)

but i post this to you SM my good fellow, since you mention it's a good upgrade path as opposed to a new camera system: in the time till they start shipping these things, a new camera could of course be released which does all that the 700 does, but internally, say for 10-12K, could even be that panasonic will wake up, who knows, maybe not. but still, would you rather upgrade and have that rather hefty system, or something all in one? your 1DC comes to mind. but again, my needs don't call for slow motion, so that does skew my view of the matter.

and liam, at an event i did bug the canon reps about just that, giving the c300 and c100 a res bump. not to 4k, but perhaps the 2.5-3k area. and they do listen, but who knows if they'll act. the hopefull part is that the c100/300/500 are their workhorses for the time being, no new cameras anywhere near the horizon, and it costs them less to upgrade firmwares to entice new sales instead of rushing new designs. the sensor they have in all 3 cameras is already 4K, already one of the very best in high iso, and competes with the best of them.
 
My understanding is that with the Sony 4K recorder, you WILL need the Sony hardware connection unit (IFR5) to make it work. But the Odyssey will work without it, meaning you can connect the Odyssey directly to the FS700 and (once you've had the necessary firmware upgrade done), it will record 2K raw or 4K compressed. (Sony themselves seem to be giving out information that contradicts some of this, but this is my understanding of how it can work straight from Convergent.)

So now you've got 2K raw or 4K compressed, all for around $6-8K, depending on the firmware upgrade from Sony, give or take.

And if you factor in that you're also getting the ability to record high-frame rates at 2K and (somewhat) at 4K, you're starting to enter Epic(ish) territory in terms of capability. And for a significantly lower price.

Now another camera can certainly come along and fill that space, sure. But based on what Canon has given us in the past year or so, it doesn't seem to be in their plans to deliver something competitive to the FS700 at anywhere near the price point. Panasonic could do it, as they've got absolutely zero products in the market to protect. But they've shown no inclination to do so.

But you can also look at the FS700 2K/4K option as a killer rental item to have access to when you need it. If a client wants/needs 2K/4K, and you've got the FS700, it will be something you can offer (and charge for).

As for the 1DC…well, it was a good idea but less-than-stellar execution.

Darren Levine said:
i should have been a bit more specific :)

all valid points, though it's still very clear that the fs700's main selling point is of course the incredible slow motion. i wasn't referring to that or any other part of it's capable self, just the 4k upgrade part. more specifically, the part where you can't just plug in sony's recorder, you have to first plug in another module just to get the two to talk together. i would like to think that there's a good reason they couldn't offer a single module to do the job, but these days we have a lot to compare to, such as the upcomming bmcproduction, which if i'm not mistaken is a fair bit smaller than the 700, but has everything capable inside. and it's a fair comparison since they're both slated to be available by july (BM is promising no shipping hassles....)

if the odessy works with no other middleman hardware, then fantastic, it's a good option. it makes the point i'm making about sony all the more relevant (unless of course i AM missing an important piece of info)

but i post this to you SM my good fellow, since you mention it's a good upgrade path as opposed to a new camera system: in the time till they start shipping these things, a new camera could of course be released which does all that the 700 does, but internally, say for 10-12K, could even be that panasonic will wake up, who knows, maybe not. but still, would you rather upgrade and have that rather hefty system, or something all in one? your 1DC comes to mind. but again, my needs don't call for slow motion, so that does skew my view of the matter.
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Darren, I don't quite get what point you are trying to make. There are so many great options available at every price point from a multitude of manufacturers. People these days should be camera agnostic. Choose what you like and get out and shoot.
 
Liam, i'm not trying to make any hard point(despite using that terminology in my responses), i'm questioning an observation. i'm perfectly satisfied with my c100, i was perfectly satisfied with my ex1 for years, the point of threads like this are for varying views to chime in, such as Stephen's view from his perspective of hunting for his ideal camera and where it might take his work.

if you need high res slow motion, it's the only game in relative town. not part of my needs, hence me poking for other's perspectives on other reasons to see the 4k upgrade path as sensible.

it's also been announced that the chipmaker for gopro has released their new chip which does 4k at 24 or something, with lower power consumption than the current gopro chip. granted, totally different markets, but it just goes to show how fast we're moving along, and upgrade paths like the 700's 4k, to me are rather clunky as compared to say, red's upgrade paths.

if gopro decided to pull a BM, things would likely get daffy, in a good way. imagine if they just took the current 3 black and sized it up to give it more buttons and ins and outs and a lens mount. a 2.7K camera.... if only.
 
I understand where Darren is coming from. I totally agree with him but Darren have you seen FS700 owners flooding to Ebay selling the FS700... NO not very. It is because I can speak for myself. Those who has bought the FS700 since the start are very happy with this camera. Everybody talk about 2K/4K etc. Indie filmmaker or Peoples who shoot commercial 1080P might just be enough. I think what we all want from this camera is broadcast quality....meaning 10bits, 442, slog2 etc for around $3000 to $4000 updgrade. At this price range I am OK with.

At the end of the day. Most of the FS700 owners are Just trying to bargain with SONY and DAN who is about to give us the Odyseey7Q. If you do the math I think the Odyssey7Q package come to about $4900 ( for a full 2K/4K solution) $300 for the SONY firmware upgrade. Correct me if I am wrong.
 
Darren Levine said:
i Feel bad for the 700 users, it's obviously a fantastic camera, but sony was rather unforthcoming and borderline misleading when they were advertising that it would be 4k capable/ready. had they told buyers up front about these extra costs, i think many would have ran for the hills. might as well go for a battle tested scarlet!

and now having black magic showing that there's no voodoo involved in having such abilities built into the camera, i just don't see what some of the bigger players are thinking they can get away with. two different beasts and abilities, but still, nonsensical
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Oh don't feel bad for us, the FS700 remains unmatched for many features at its price point. And now they are saying they will give us slog for free and multiple 2k/4k recording options? Yes please. As for the comparison with Scarlet, I own Scarlet and FS700 and if you haven't used either camera, I can see how people might get confused and think they are anywhere near comparable just looking at specs with RAW recorder attached. Scarlet I usually shoot at ISO500 and doesn't have a speedbooster, and it requires about 4x as many accessories particularly due to requiring 6x as much battery power. FS700, like the C100, can go out and get great images at ISO3200+ if you need. And the speedbooster makes all my lenses faster than any comparable S35 cine lenses...

I would never underestimate the importance of high sensitivity when it comes to low budget shooting, since it can make my 250w lights look like 2k's.

It's true that FS700 with the extras needed to get 4k and/or RAW will start approaching the footprint, power consumption, and cost of Scarlet, but then it still has 240fps and super clean ISO3200 etc. And you still have a camera that can run without the extras.

RED makes nice cameras for commercials, theatrical release, etc, but they are not all around cameras. You couldn't put everything you need to shoot Scarlet in a backpack and go out and shoot an event or ENG anything of that sort. With the FS700 you can have a camera that does that and can also be a nice 4k/raw camera without having to own another completely different camera. Even the dragon sensor won't change that.

I like the look of the C100 a bit better than the FS700, but I use 60fps so much and 240fps pretty frequently as well for fashion jobs and other things, so even the C300 wouldnt really do what I need, and the FS700 still looks damn good especially with the right tweaks.

As for blackmagic etc, RAW is great, but RED will still lead by far in RAW functionality because it allows compression. RAW and >2k sounds like a great idea, but no one wants to deal with 150-500MBps uncompressed video... At least Sony implements 3.6x compression which will make their RAW somewhat manageable, and the 7Q may support 4k prores and perhaps other things in the future.
 
Darren Levine said:
I started with sony, i've had a good time with sony, but they've fallen off the radar for me, mostly the form factors pushed me away, but reading about what people will have to do to get 4k out of the 700 is just plain silly...
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What on earth are you talking about? The firmware/hardware upgrade is rumored to be around $300, and Sony WORKED with convergent design so that CD can release odyssey7Q about the same time as FS700 upgrade. Do you think convergent design is doing this all by their own? Sony licensed FS700 RAW (along with SDK to develop it) to convergent design.

And what other camera in the market today can match FS700 specs for the price?

12-bit 2K RAW upto 240 fps.
4K uncompressed video at 30 fps
There is also talk about 10-bit 1080p with odyssey7Q uptp 60 fps

Specs wise FS700 totally trashes C100/C300
 
Darren Levine said:
i should have been a bit more specific :)

all valid points, though it's still very clear that the fs700's main selling point is of course the incredible slow motion. i wasn't referring to that or any other part of it's capable self, just the 4k upgrade part. more specifically, the part where you can't just plug in sony's recorder, you have to first plug in another module just to get the two to talk together.
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And I am sure that Sony were well aware of that. That's why they licensed the FS700 RAW to convergent design (and probably other third-party manufacturers). Did you miss that?

FS700 + odyssey7Q is still cheaper than C300, but look at the difference:

12-bit 2K RAW 240 fps
4K uncompressed - 30 fps
10-bit 1080p video

C300 can't do any of that

 
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Also it is worth mentioning that so far it looks like you won't get true 10 bit after the hard/firm-ware update straight out of the camera. Only by going for odyssey7Q (hopefully) will you be able to get 10bit with compressed formats such as DNxHD and another codec. After the update you always have the raw options to get more then 8-bit, but im not so interested in raw myself.
 
freshTEA said:
Also it is worth mentioning that so far it looks like you won't get true 10 bit after the hard/firm-ware update straight out of the camera. Only by going for odyssey7Q (hopefully) will you be able to get 10bit with compressed formats such as DNxHD and another codec. After the update you always have the raw options to get more then 8-bit, but im not so interested in raw myself.
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That's exactly what I meant. According to Dan, odyssey7Q would be able to record 2K RAW as 10-bit 1080 60p as one of the option. Keep in mind Canon C300 only has an 8-bit HD-SDI output, too.
 
:)
All we can do is hope that convergent-design will be as nice a possible regarding the price for that option. So a total upgrade might look like this:
300$ upgrade
2300$ odyssey 7q
1200$ 480 GB odyssey drive.
and possibly extra for the fs700 deal option (if you want 10-12 bit compressed)
 
I also understand where Darren is coming from, like freshTEA I was also really hoping for 10 bit compressed out, it almost seemed like a given, Sony were bringing S-log2 to the FS700 with a hardware update and discontinuing the F3, maybe they even remembered they used to offer 10 bit out on high end consumer cameras years ago. They have to be upgrading the output to 10 bit as 12+ stops of DR in a log to 8 bits doesn't make sense, right? Wrong, both Convergent Design and now the Sony announcement themselves have shown it's going to stay at 8 bit which is baffling, I don't really undestand why they're adding S-log as the raw doesn't use log. So this paid hardware update at $300 will give you 12 bit raw, the Odyssey will have to use their raw licence with Sony (costing you $1500) to convert the 12 bit raw into 10 bit compressed for you and presumably adding a log to that to compress the DR, it's an utterly unneccesary, wasteful, full circle, expensive process just to get a small update in image quality, an extra 2 really important bits. I guess those who just want 10 bit compressed HD have to ask ourselves how much we're prepared to pay. Regarding prices for all this, they're pretty much all out now so lets look at what the options are:


Current Sony FS700 = $7500
8 bit internal with 12 stop dynamic range, quite flat profiles, 8 bit out

Sony hardware upgrade
Gives you 8 bit internal with perhaps extra 0.5 stop dynamic range with S-log2 (based on Freiheit's tests), still 8 bit out, this is probably beyond the sensible limits of 8 bit, s-log2 was designed for 10 bit+, I can only think they've held back on the log, if they'd made it 10 bit it probably could have used the full 14 stops of the sensor, imagine that :(

OR the option to record the raw output, there are currently two recording options scheduled for July/August

Sony Route, minimum setup:

$2,000 (not fully confirmed price) - Sony HXR-IFR5 recording interface
$5,350 Sony - AXS-R5 Recorder
$1,800 Sony - 512GB Memory Card for AXS System
$550 Sony AXS-CR1 USB 3.0 Card Reader
$500 conservative V-mount battery and charger setup, can take off if you own already
TOTAL=$10,200

I think many would agree that they didn't expect that price from Sony. It puts the total with camera to $17,700, that's over a $1000 more than an F5 and is in Epic-X mysterium territory. Yes the Epic doesn't do X/Y/Z the F5 doesn't do X/Y/Z but the FS700 doesn't do things compared to them and it will fall short in terms of build, useability and speed of editing and have you seen the FS700 with the interface and recorder and battery on?! http://files.dvinfo.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/NAB13-P1010550.jpg

I personally want sensible, good, 10 bit compressed HD, to get that with an FS700 going the Sony route costs over $10k and won't even give me compressed!

So, the only other current option, the Convergent Design Odyssey7Q:

$300 for the hardware update (you don't have to pay this if you buy a Sony recorder)
$2,295 Odyssey 7Q (being from UK I will pay a fair amount of shipping and A LOT of tax importing this, I'm leaving that off
$695 or $4390 240GB SSD or 2x$960GB SSDs (see total)
$1495 FS700 support (this is effectively the passed on licence Sony ask CD to pay for the privilege of unweaving their raw stream, thanks Sony! You can pay this as rental per day if you want at $75 a day, personally I think that's bonkers, will I use this recording mechanism for more than 20 days in it's life - yes!)
$100 battery and charger, not sure what it takes but in fairness I should add something on
TOTAL=$4885 or $8580 (I believe some modes require two of the high speed 960GB SSDs working in tandem, for instance the 240fps 2k raw mode, not sure on this though)


So yes, I think it's fair to be upset with Sony if you're not planning on shooting raw 4k all the time, they shouldn't have mentioned S-log and a hardware update with mysterious options if they weren't updating the output to something more professional. I would like a reasonably priced solution, or just different priced solution between 4k raw and 8 mbit HD please! One is for consumer point and shoots, a delivery not editing format, the other is so high end even multi million pound films and TV shows aren't always shot in raw or 4k, Game of Thrones is shot in Prores 2.8k I believe, not Arriraw!

Will I ever want 4k or raw? Yes! Do I need it for most things? No. Do the above prices and options fill me with happiness and sunshine? No.

I will wait to see what CD do with their compressed conversions, maybe somehow they can escape the raw $1500 cost if the final output isn't raw. But bear in mind the FS700 is a high speed camera in my opinion and because the HD output isn't going above 8 bit, even CDs most high end offering may not be able to give you compressed 240fps 10 bit HD, it can just do raw at 240fps but compressed requires more processing power and raw I believe skips out on the 8 second buffer process so you won't even have that mode. We shall see.
 
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Yes toby pretty much nailed what i was getting at. breaking down the costs of using sony's recorder makes the costs quite a bit more than comfortable, and my definition of comfortable is that a recorder should never cost more than the camera, let alone surpass it.

The odessy is another case, and not one i was trying to make, it is possibly far more sensible, hopefully so. i did get to see the odessy at a show, and it looks fantastic, the only thing that irked me about it was the interface: there's so much packed onto the screen that you need a stylus to poke at them. hopefully they do some GUI designing to get that to be a bit more intuitive, as i don't think anyone wants to file their fingernail or have a bag full of spare styluses :)
 
I've seen this a lot, the idea that upgrades or accessories should never cost more than a camera, but why would we be surprised that the upgrades cost for modular systems can be more expensive than the least expensive camera in the modular line? It's priced relative to the market and relative to R&D and manufacturing, not a few people's misinterpretations. It's like how some people can't believe the RED Dragon sensor upgrade costs as much as a scarlet body. Remember Sony's RAW system is designed around the same one used for the F65 and is exactly the same hardware for the F55. Just like RED designed dragon for Epic. Why not just be happy our lower-end products aren't completely forgotten compared to much higher end cameras? I mean Sony is already risking butchering its own product line with the 4k/2k/RAW capabilities of the FS700, which appears to have more capabilities and cost less than the F5. If they were Canon, they'd just cripple all their cameras to be sure their top end was protected and not promise anything so no one was disappointed. I would have bought the FS700 even if Sony hadn't said 4k ready, but it certainly made the purchase a little easier.

It's pretty sweet my FS700 still has a place as a B-camera to go alongside F65/55/5 since it can fit into exactly the same workflow and use the same hardware and offers similar performance.

Consumers are never happy, but I can't complain about my FS700 especially since these days cameras are "obsoleted" every year by half a dozen new cameras, so it's nice to own RED and Sony cameras since they are allowing me to breathe new life into my 1+ old cameras and give me features of their brand new cameras.

It's nice when manufacturers give us a few options, and in the end why be bothered since you can always sell your camera and buy something else. Or you can rent.
 
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