I'm not seeing the comparison

[John Andersson]

As I see it if you can afford Alexa it's the best and if you really need 4K and higher fps a Red will do but as soon as you are out of the Alexa budget I think something like Sonys F3 and next year their F5 make alot of sense. To me F3 is just natural looking so one can apply any look to it.

 

[Grug]

To be honest, everyone is doing something quite different and unique with their cameras at the moment. In fact I think most of the large-sensor cameras on the market are in less direct competition than most people seem to think - as each of the cameras is approaching things differently.

If you need large-sensor broadcast-ready footage, or a really stealthy camera - Canon is the way to go.

If you need high-resolution or RAW recording in a compact form-factor Red is the obvious choice.

If you need the most filmic images available, or the speed of direct ProRes recording - Arri has you covered.

If you need the absolute highest-image quality available Sony's F65 is the camera for you.

If you want beautiful S35mm images, but can't afford the higher end cameras, then the F3 paired with a recorder gets you there (albeit awkwardly).

I think the most interesting thing about these new Sonys is that they basically offer all of the various advantages of the current cameras, in a simple, unified form-factor. It largely means it'll be less necessary to 'choose the right camera for the job' - because they'll do just about anything you need.

But there's a place for all these cameras, because everyone has different needs and different tastes.

 

[JCummings]

Funny about Panasonic...they did show a 4K prototype/concept Varicam at this year's NAB. Not sure what's happening there, but I suspect the market is moving too fast for the Panasonic development team.
In retrospect, it does sorta look like a cross between a RED and a Sony...

 

[f64manray]

Idiotic statement. We should all be using iphones to shoot based on that logic.

Some of those cinematographers I'm talking about here have ASC after their name, so I don't take their opinions lightly.

Just to back you up a bit. I certainly don't run in ASC circles, but I try to stay fairly informed on the subject. Seems I remember reading or watching an interview with Charters, and he does have many ASC friends I'm sure, and he mentioned that Sony is definitely not favored by many in that community. It stood out to me when I heard it. I'd like to hear their opinions on the F5/F55 when released.

 

[Nate Weaver]

and he mentioned that Sony is definitely not favored by many in that community. It stood out to me when I heard it.

It's no secret that there's a few other cameras that get chosen before Sony. At that level, and top dollar commercials, there's always enough money to just choose whatever they want. It goes film, Alexa, maybe Red. Doesn't really matter though, that portion of the market continues to shrink, and there's a growing middle class.

 

[Noel Evans]

The F3 without S-Log certainly suffers from this. I have DP peers who were less than impressed with the F3 before S-Log got out summer of 2011.

Unfortunately also the time I tested the F3 and felt the same. (In a studio setting).

I'm always interested first and foremost how the camera's image looks to me, if Im not comfortable shooting with something, then I dont shoot with it - jobs tricky enough. Im thinking the F5 and F55 for the most part due to the 4k however will be judged on their own merits.

Australia (where I am currently - as this whole posts relates to me and my environment), has always been fairly Sony centric, which says to me these cameras are set to do very well here - especially in rental houses. For our local rental houses, having spoken to many, there is still some fear with Red products as with any camera they may go down during a shoot however, the local Sony guys will have them sorted quick smart. Not saying anything against RED's service history - its just there is no red service in Australia - everything needs to go back to the US. And with no local contact etc.

 

[klk]

I'm not ASC, but I am Local 600 in NYC. Many jobs already spec out the camera- producer and believe it or not, post chooses. I've raised my voice in protest a few times, but truth is, it mostly gets harder to get hired again when you do that. Everything depends on the job and who's involved. Some commercial producers like Red, or 4/5K because they like to "push in" in post. Other commercial producers will only shoot Alexa now. I don't know anyone who is willing to shoot F65 due to early issues and subsequent reputation with the camera. I actually put together financing to buy an F65 because of the image quality, but the producers I work with have no desire to use that camera on a job. I didn't buy the camera. And I"m extremely relieved that I didn't. I've never shot with the C300, but the rental houses tell me it's surprisingly popular with producers. I've requested F3's on one job, but the producers wanted to, and went Red instead.

For me current paying work has all been Red (every flavor but Scarlet) and Alexa. Reds have almost never been truly production ready, to this day. They are quirky. They may not boot. They may not post. I have to make sure the DIT has a copy of Red Undead handy. There are many private party Reds. When a producer hires one, they are all setup differently, with different workarounds to solve basic issues. There is usually a scramble to get all the pieces to work together. But there are a lot of Reds and everyone is used to the workflow.

Producers like the Alexa because it looks good, and it was not released prematurely. Because of the cost of the camera, and because it's an Arri, the setup is totally industry standard. Producers love Prores 444 out of the box. I like it because you shoot what you intend and the image is potentially less likely to be screwed up in post by the colorist- to what THEY think the image should look like. I've not had a chance to shoot a project ArriRaw- those budgets are still slightly out of reach. I will ask for an Alexa first for all the above reasons. A well accessorized Epic is just as easy for me with a knowledgeable DIT.

It's easiest for a producer to just shoot Alexa- he won't get crap from the client because of it. Nobody will complain. With every other camera system someone will complain, or state their reservation, deserved or not.

My true opinion is that all the top cameras are good enough, assuming 35mm is NOT in the equation. The lighting is MOST important to the look of a project. The crew is more important to the look than the camera. The location and production design are more important to the look than the camera. The lenses are more important to the look than the camera. Post is more important to the look than the camera. And of course with narrative work the talent and script are most important to the production.

Is Sony killing it? Sony is fast fading professionally and in the consumer market. will Sony move fast enough to simply survive or become the next Kodak/JVC/choose your corporate dinosaur ? I don't know. I do hope they price the F55 with killer instincts, just as Jannard has priced his Epic now. But I suspect Sony corporation to be too insular and old fashioned to make a big statement NOW with the F5, F55.

Black Magic is killing it, once they start producing their camera. Red is killing it through hype and price. Arri is killing it with market relevance and placement and penetration. What I don't understand is how Canon is killing it with their cameras- I didn't quite get the C300 and I haven't seen an integrated 4K solution for the C500, but producers love those cameras. Where are Panasonic and JVC? Toshiba, Hitachi and other old line Broadcast ENG EFP manufacturers? Where has Ikegami been all these years?

Sony, if you are listening, I suspect your cameras are too expensive. The F700 and F3 need a major price adjustment- just look at Red's Scarlet and Epic. They have integrated 4K recording. The F5 should be about $15K, the F55 around $25K. The 4K recorder for $5K is competitive. My thoughts from a New York City market perspective.

 

[thehadgi]

I hope sony listens to you on the FS700... because I want one, but don't enough $... yet :cheesy:

 

[jimagine]

Sony, if you are listening, I suspect your cameras are too expensive. The F700 and F3 need a major price adjustment- just look at Red's Scarlet and Epic. They have integrated 4K recording. The F5 should be about $15K, the F55 around $25K. The 4K recorder for $5K is competitive. My thoughts from a New York City market perspective.

I thought this entire post was insightful, but this is exactly my feeling on where they should be.

The market is going to look very different in just a year and it would be smart for Canon and Sony to understand that.
The pricing vs imposed limitations of the new C100 is an example of how they're still mired in old corporate thinking.
It's not that world anymore.

 

[Nate Weaver]

Is Sony killing it? Sony is fast fading professionally and in the consumer market. will Sony move fast enough to simply survive or become the next Kodak/JVC/choose your corporate dinosaur ? I don't know. I do hope they price the F55 with killer instincts, just as Jannard has priced his Epic now.

+1 on entire post. Every last detail is my experience too. When the budget is less than say $50K/day then the production team will entertain alternative camera choices like F3. I too do not understand the success of the C300. The only think I can think of is that it works well with EOS lenses, and that may be enough.

Your last notes on Sony developing killer instinct...the market is quite different now, there are very hungry new players (Red, Blackmagic, to a lesser degree, Canon) They will need to shift their thinking to succeed. I think there's evidence they are getting it, but most of it remains to be seen.

I certainly hope they put some pressure on...I feel multiple codecs is a potentially game winning move. Many details left before that actually happens though.