If your budget was 50-100k.. would you?

TimurCivan said:
Crew: Now lets assume you get a decent DP, with a uuuhhhh i dunno, and F3/basic glass/tripod, for the two weeks at $10,000 ( for RED may be more, BMC maybe a bit less) You will need a 1st AC, 2nd/Loader, Gaffer, KGrip, and at least 2 grips/Electrics to move fast enough to make it cost effective, remember, time = money so spending a bit more on crew to make sure you move fast enough to not abuse the people working for $50-$100 a day. Not to mention additional lighting you will occasionally need. I honestly dont think you will be able to keep a crew for 15(assuming) days at $100 a day. I budgeted my last feature for crew on a $100,000 budget and everyone averaged about $350 a day, keys getting $400. Now a great place to spend some of that $100,000 is a good professional sound mixer and boom op. I know it isnt sexy to spend money on them, but you will thank yourself to no end in post. The two should run about $1000 a day, Mixer getting $700 for him and gear and the Boom op getting the rest. WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE.
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T, not to undermine anything you are saying but you are spending too much on your crew. A personal feature-length film is a different beast that a typical run of the mill commercial or even a music video. People will do it as much for the love of working with hopefully quality material as for the money. At $100k your average should be around $200/day - i know, really low, but this is what the budget really allows for. I swing back and forth between well paid projects where crews are makings almost union rate and low budget crap and the same guys who are making $400 on one job are making $200 on another.
 
Also, I talked to one DP who was asking for 650.00 a day, plus more for use of gear that he had extra.. like a 30ft jib. I think it just depends on who you ask, and how much they like you, like your material.
 
Azmyth said:
Sorry I was enjoying Mother's Day weekend. Let me explain more.

I'm shooting a film around professional wrestling. It's a narrative. I'll be shooting in high school gyms, VFW's, bar's, and most of the shots are interior. Very few exterior night shots. Almost all the shots are interior, or day exteriors. This is a comedy, not a horror film that I'm usually doing.
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Well sounds like you don't have to light an entire nighttime valley or desert like Django or No Country, which is good. Still, sounds like some bigger complex setups, wrestling ring with audience, etc. Still nothing to simply throw a couple softbank kits at and say you're good. That is the DP's call of course.

Azmyth said:
Shooting in GA. Georgia is the 4th largest production state now, and its quickly climbing. We are getting tons of new films, and shows here. We have Anchorman 2, Need for Speed, Vampire Diaries, The Walking Dead, 42, Trouble with the curve, and oodles of tv shows, and movies being shot here right now. I have had auditions for a ton of them via my agent.
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Not sure this matters a great deal. The agent is a great start, however. Even with LA as the #1 and I find although there are more actors here, it's not any cheaper and still hard to find good actors. I guess you are better off than say Nebraska... but Georgia is also a big state. Are you from Atlanta? I lived in GA for 5 years, studying filmmaking at SCAD. I know what it's like to try to pull actors, and it's very difficult unless you live within a reasonable drive from ATL, at least that is how it was 5-10 years ago.

The BIGGEST advantages some states have over California, is lower sales taxes and tax incentives. You should really look into GA tax incentives. I'm not sure you're budget is high enough, but if it is, and you apply AHEAD of time, you could possibly get a big tax break. You would likely need to create a film company that teams up with a couple other small films to reach the goal, but if you do, you can get 30% of your budget back.

You spent $100,000? How would you like the State of GA to write you a check for $30,000? http://www.georgia.org/COMPETITIVE-ADVANTAGES/TAX-CREDITS/Pages/film-tv-credit.aspx

It seems you will need to find a larger indie film and incorporate under them as a multiple project, project. If both (or more) films apply for the tax deduction at the same time and have combined budgets of over 500,000 (to be spent in GA).... you will get the tax incentive. But I find for many states this must be done well in advance of shooting and you should have an accountant/entertainment lawyer make sure everything is in order. I've heard of people trying to get a state tax incentive after-shooting, and it usually doesn't end well for them.

Azmyth said:
This is my 3rd feature. I've already done two. First one was with an HV40, 2nd was with my GH2. My crew has learned as we go, but they aren't "professionals". But we've gotten plenty of compliments from actors who work with us about how nice everyone is, and how efficient we are compared to other productions. Apparently the bar isn't very high. I shot 7TM in 16 days.
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Every film requires a different set of circumstances. Some films can be made in three weeks, some in three years, and most in-between. My only advice was to make sure you have enough money to make sure you can actually do your job and not just run a bloody gauntlet. You want to move quickly and be efficient, but you also want to make sure you have the time to get the performances and adjust to any small issues.

Azmyth said:
50k is the bare minimum I think I can shoot this for. I have to rent wrestling rings, secure insurance, pay for costumes, etc. 100k would be ideal. 50k is the backup plan. This is going to be something on the same level production wise as "The Wrestler" or "Facing the Giants" but will look more like napoleon dynamite. I want it to have a distinct indie feel, but still looking cinematic and professional. I think the subject matter is going to help with that.
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As I've said, if the story is really worth telling, it's worth waiting until you can do it right. Unless you are in a hurry to waste tons of money, a good investment is a wise investment. There is nothing wrong with waiting to give yourself more preproduction time, fundraising time, etc. Something you can really only decide for yourself. All I know is, after working on nearly 200 productions, I would never shoot a film of my own without having full confidence that my budget is acceptable. I would never spend thousands of dollars on something I felt was sub-funded to begin with or just at minimum. Things ALWAYS happen. Truck breaks down, power outage, traffic jam, illness, etc. If you go into a film with just the bare minimum needed to do it 'right', the first hiccup will put you into a tailspin.

That said, you have a good subject matter as far as crowd-funding goes. People like wrestling, and if you can safely navigate that topic and address it to the fans ,you could potentially get a very positive reaction.

Azmyth said:
I'm just trying to make the right choice, given all the other things are as they should be. I wouldn't dare put something as silly as a camera over the other stuff. Also, I mentioned the goals of the film because I personally feel like you need goals for what you want to do with your film before you make it. Some films fare better at film festivals than they do just going straight for distribution. You sort of need to know that in order to determine what kind of movie you need to make. I wouldn't consider either of the last two of my films "festival" films that would do well at anything but genre specific fests. It's true its irrelevant to my question, but its not totally irrelevant. I'm usually the last person who will say "going to sundance" etc. but you know I feel like its a right of passage. I always laugh at film makers who are making a film SPECIFICALLY for that, and no other reason. That imo is laughable. But, I always have other plans for what I do. I just wanted to take a stab at it at least once. You never know. It's better to try and fail, than to have never tried.

Ok, now I'm rambling.
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Well it does sound like you have quite the grasp of things. I would stress trying to find, and team up with, other indie productions to reach the 500,000 mark for tax incentive rebates. I'd also try to raise as much money as possible, even if that delays production just awhile. Going into the film with 100,000 will result in a much different film than a 50,000 one.
 
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I also think $400/day is quite a lot to pay the crew for a $100k film. Another strategy for low-budget hiring might be to give a person more creative control than they have had in the past. For example, a lifetime gaffer might put more effort and enthusiasm into the role of DP, trying to prove himself. Empower people, and they will do their best.

Make sure you do this in earnest. It shouldn't be some gimmick to rip people off. You don't just say, "I want to empower you to prove yourself and do your best work." You have to really mean it.

I've said this in other threads about low budget shoots and received bad reactions, but very few people speak up for passion and courage on this forum. $50k-$100k films are made out of enthusiasm and not much more. You don't really want anybody around who doesn't care about your film.

I just offered a filmmaking team from this forum that I drive across the country, live in my car, and work for free on their next feature. I'm quite good across many technical areas, usually pretty valuable to have around. Why would I do this? Because I love their movies. I'm a huge believer in them. I'm also certain that my enthusiasm for their project would outlast any well-paid crew member whose enthusiasm didn't match my own. I don't believe you could pay a person to work harder than me when I'm unpaid. Pay me, and my effort cuts off at the threshold of my perceived value of contribution.

Once a person's basic needs are met, any additional money is a cheap motivator. Believe it or not, there are some things in this life that are worth more than money.
 
Pay everybody on the crew $100 + $20 gas money, including the DP and AD. For that rate your grips and electrics most likely will revolve, but who cares. For a crew of 15 that will cost you $22K in wages + $4500 in gas money , that's all you can afford. Feeding the crew and cast for fifteen days at $20 a pop a day will be around another $6K + insurance that's already a third of your budget.

When you do low budget throw a bone to your crew, for example I let the 2nd AC operate some scenes, little afford and it means the world to them and they will die for you.

If you choose a DP make sure he leaves his ego at home, don't tolerate screaming or condescending remarks from your DP, it's a sign of being inexperienced in running a crew. If he does, fire him, plenty of DP's lined up to take his place. And even the best DP's in the world will produce s*%t without good art-direction, art is just as important as lighting a scene. Make sure all the keys are lined up and are well informed, especially about money, so there are no hard feelings when you tell your art-director there is no money left in the budget for that can of paint.

Before you hire anyone else get a killer line producer and an experienced 1st AD.
 
There are two approaches to film budgets. One: fit the film to the budget, and Two: fit the budget to the film. Figure out which is more flexible. If you can adjust the budget more, then raise more money to do your film justice. If the budget is fixed, then adjust your film to do your film justice on a budget.

Think of it this way: I have $10K I want to spend on my film (I could raise slightly more, but it wouldn't change things). I feel comfortable losing every penny - and counting on that. Now, I could do a historical epic on that budget - I just watched a very amusing documentary on netflix (it's streamable) called Welcome To Nollywood about the crazy film industry in Nigeria... that's where insane stuff happens, like no-budget epics... of course, those look like it too - and while it works in Nigeria, it wouldn't work here. So the point is not to simply have a film no matter the size and then try to do it on your $10K budget - "Gee I have a historic epic, how can I make it on 10K". Instead, ask "what can I do to make a good film where $10K is plenty of money". It's like you have $100 - you can feed 1000 people very badly for a day, or you can feed one person for a day really well - your scale will be smaller, but it will be top quality, instead of huge scale at crap quality. So that's what I did - I wrote a piece that can be done for $10K, that I will shoot for $10K instead of writing a piece that demands $1,000,000, but shoot it on $100K.

Of course, you'll get people who jump up and tell you you can't do a good feature for $10K, period - ignore those people (see Cafe section for a discussion of this) - because the same people will tell you that you can't do a $50K film that's any good, and so on, until you are spending $200 million and it's still not enough. Ignore them. Ask: is my budget more flexible, or my film more flexible - then adjust that which is easier to do, because remember, the goal is to make a good film - not expensive or cheap film, but good film, and a good film can be either cheap or expensive.
 
Azmyth said:
Also, I talked to one DP who was asking for 650.00 a day, plus more for use of gear that he had extra.. like a 30ft jib. I think it just depends on who you ask, and how much they like you, like your material.
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$650/d is really a bare minimum for an experienced DP because at this rate you are killing his prospects of making 3-4x as much doing a few 1 day long commercials during your filming. At the same time can you afford to blow through $12-15k of your budget on just a DP?... And here is where the viscous circle begins. Honestly i can't tell you the real answer. I just turned down a feature at $450/d - it simply wasn't enough to make my time worth it.
 
I'd kill to get paid 450.00 a day to do just about anything.

(in response, I know he could make much more $$ doing network commercials or a plethora of other things. I can make 1500.00 in a day or more when I break down and take weddings.. but by golly I HATEEEEEEE doing them. I'd work on a feature for 50 bucks vs. doing that.)

Someone said this earlier, its not always about the money but at the same time. If your experienced, its like any other job.. if your accustomed to working for X amount, that's the bar you've set for yourself. It's respectable and there's nothing wrong with that, 650.00 a day is just out of the question for this film. I'm not quite there yet in terms of that. I'm a case of molding my film to my budget. I write around what I have, what I can get for little to nothing, and spend the money on the things I absolutely can't do without. Which is quite a bit of stuff. I've only bought food a few times. I'm lucky enough to have a core crew of people who love working with me, and I have a craft person who brings a smorgasbord of stuff every shoot. I'd dare say we have better food than some big movie shoots. I've worked on enough sets to see the food choices, and I know the extras isn't that great at least. All I know is we always have more than pizza or subway.
 
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Azmyth said:
I'd kill to get paid 450.00 a day to do just about anything.

(in response, I know he could make much more $$ doing network commercials or a plethora of other things. I can make 1500.00 in a day or more when I break down and take weddings.. but by golly I HATEEEEEEE doing them. I'd work on a feature for 50 bucks vs. doing that.)
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But you probably wouldn't. There is plenty if time where you have better things to do. If you were in the smack middle of prepping your film you probably would say, no thank you. Ultimately it's NOT all about the money!
 
You know, it's funny. I originally suggested using whatever gear the DP is most comfortable with or has with him. I did that before I knew what genre your film was. I still hold to that - your DP is going to be key here, his wishes are what should be your guide. Having said that... you are doing a kind of comedy. I submit, that a professionally lit film will look professional, regardless if it's a comedy or noir or sci-fi. But - and here a thousand people will jump down my throat - the fact that it's a comedy, makes it even less critical to my mind what camera you use. Usually in comedies you use low contrast ratios, you are doing a lot of interiors, and while more DR is always nice to have in a cam, it's a BIT less critical in this case than in a moody drama or sci-fi. So, if that were the case, the GH2 would be an even stronger contender for the simple reason that you already have it, you have the lenses, you know the camera and support gear. Yes, yes, you can't really grade GH2 footage, but it's a comedy - I know people will disagree - but I just don't see quite the same demand for massive color grading in a mostly indoor comedy compared to sci-fi or period, or dark crime/drama etc.. Pick the camera the DP wants and is affordable - or he has it - but if not, then if I were you, I would really not cry a river about shooting on the GH2.
 
I get where your coming from. I can see that too. I just want it to look the best it can look. I know this isn't hollywood, but films like hot rod, superbad.. sort of have the look i'm going for. I can't think of any indie examples right now that share that look, but I'm sure there are.
 
Jorn van Oostende said:
Pay everybody on the crew $100 + $20 gas money, including the DP and AD. For that rate your grips and electrics most likely will revolve, but who cares.
........Before you hire anyone else get a killer line producer and an experienced 1st AD.
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With that rate, you'll have revolving everyone. AC's, makeup, etc. Anyone who gets a better paying offer will leave. 100/day buys little loyalty. Now again, if they are your friends, it might be different since they are not professionals and will not be getting many, if any, offers :/

I see many low budget indie features get away with $200/day for 1st AC, 150/day second AC, and likely 150/125/day for grips and etc... but never, ever would $100/day for a DP get you the caliber of experience or talent you want when you need someone to take what little you have and do great things. It could be possible, if you found the Lebron James of cinematography right out of filmschool, but that is unlikely.

Again, you can do whatever you'd like, but if you're trying to hire a cinematography alchemist to turn your lead indie-film into production value gold, you ought to really invest in a good one. $100 isn't going to bring any decent contenders to the table. At that rate you are more or less counting on luck.
 
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Just out of curiosity (I'm a wrestling fan), would you mind saying who the wrestlers are, or would you mind PMing it to me? Anyways, my favorite of the three is the BMCC. Love the image. I've been having some problems with my camera, but it's been worth it for the image. Keep in mind though, it also has the worse rolling shutter skew of the three, which may be a problem for you depending on how you film the matches. Good luck!
 
I just did 2 week shoot with my "filmmaking friends" donating their time at $100/d and it's confirmed - $100/d is not enough for pros. They will give you a week max then slowly melt away.
 
I would hire either Ryan or Patryk...seriously...pay their rate. It'll be worth it.
 
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Some good suggestions already given. You should hire a good DP and focus on getting the performance out of the actors/friends. There would be a few film school graduates who would like a break and you can approach them to take part in your film at a lower cost. I feel it is better to get some aspiring actors who want to make a career in this. It also helps, if you can write down some notes for the scenes and give it to the actors so that they can emote better. Give them DVDs/ copy scenes from movies where your favourite actor acted in a certain manner etc etc...

Low budget doesn't means low preparation. The more you prepare, the faster your actors will hit their lines and better will be overall film.
 
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