If I were to buy today (May 19, 2011), what would be my best options?

M

mspics

Member
Let's say I want to shoot professional HD short films with a dSLR camera (5-10 minutes, needs decent low light situations but nothing too extreme, there will be camera movement in some of the shots).

I know that the new Mark III is around the corner and a myriad of other cameras, but if I were to buy today, what would be the best options, and why? Also, what additional equipment should be purchased with it and why (matte boxes, external field monitors, etc)?

If I wanted to buy two cameras, one main and one supplemental but don't have the budget for say -- two 5D's, what are some good solutions for a second camera?

I've done a lot of research but mostly on higher end cameras for the companies I contract for. I want to purchase for myself and am trying to decide if it's better to wait a few months or to buy something used, or whatever. All the information you have to offer will be helpful! Links are even better. And older posts can be less relevant hence the significance of starting a new thread - as we got closer to new products the worth of waiting vs. not waiting can change.

Thanks. :)
 
Why the T3ix2? Just wondering the advantages/disadvantages over other options. :)

And yeah, I'd love to have a Sony F3 too. -.-
 
What is your budget. These questions go nowhere without context, and budget is a HUGE context. How can anyone really know what 'camera movement' will be. NO ONE knows that the Mark III is right around the corner, as everything I have read is pure speculation. Only you can decide if you need a mattebox (i don't use one) or a field monitor (yes I use one). What about lens budger, or if you have lenses.

The best way you can answer your own questions is get your hands on some cameras that interest you. Rent a 5D, or t2i, or GH2, or even an AF100 (if within budget) or the FS100 when it comes out. Unless you use them, you just CANNOT know how you will feel about each of these cameras shortcomings. EVERYONE is going to have a different opinion because different things are important to each person.

I spent A LOT of time reading here and elsewhere before purchasing my HV30, D90, 7D, my AF100 and the FS100 coming shortly. One thing I learned is that what I read online was helpful, but wow, wasn't even a half of the story once I got to using the actual hardware.
 
Part of what you're saying is the information I'm trying to figure out - aside from using the camera's myself. I've used a t2i and a 5D a few times, and managed the footage as a Post Supervisor for television shows and films. Lenses are another thing I'm looking at. I'm looking for a general gathering of information. I'm not asking for a specific "This for This". I'm talking about "If you're in this situation, you should probably consider using something like this setup or this setup. Then if you're going for this you might want to try this." This is informative for me to have a full on conversation with others on the project about what will fit our needs.

Budgetwise, let's say $5k-$20k for cameras, lenses and accessories (everything, so the F3 is a bit out of this range for getting all required).

And don't tell me it's unrealistic, I've held this discussion for multi-million dollar projects by asking these same kinds of questions (with larger scale equipment), with people who were willing to contribute information. And like you're saying, I'm spending time reading and trying to get some feedback from people on the forum. It'd be much appreciated!

P.S. Yes, I do know the Mark III is around the corner. :)
 
So let's say that F3 is just too much. If it were me, I'd be looking between the AF100 and the FS100. Unless it's the Full Frame sensor you want, then it's 5D period. I'm not saying your being unrealistic at all, believe me, it's that the questions are so vague. Sure, you can use a HDSLR, and I have for A LOT of stuff, but at some point, you need to decide what you can live with. I'm assuming you want good DoF control which is what S35ish sized sensors are good for (since you said short films, I am assuming narrative) which is why I am only commenting on large sensor cameras.

Having spent a good year shooting on the 7D (which, other than DoF, is representative of the entire Canon HDSLR line), the GH2 a tiny bit, the AF100 for a few months, and what I have seen of the FS100, I've come to the conclusion that it's not even the support equipment that I have a problem with the 7D. I had shot separate sound. I protect my camera from heat as it DOES shut off a lot on hot days or if ANY direct sunlight is hitting the body, I can live with the battery life, or the 11 minute clip limit. And I actually LOVE the size of the 7D. What I cannot stand is the aliasing and rolling shutter. I shoot a lot of stuff that ends up being in urban environments and the bricks play havoc on the aliasing. Canons are the worst. The GH1/GH2 do a MUCH better job and have zero chromatic aliasing, but I can still get them to alias rather easy on high spatial frequency. Does this matter to you? Maybe not. A lot of people live with it and are not bothered by it. For myself, doing VFX work on my films, it drives me crazy. Also, people with suits, bad bad bad. So tired of that.

Rolling shutter on the AF100 is almost twice as fast as the 7D. I've measured both very carefully. To me, this is also important. It allows you to move quicker with the lens and not get jello in the shots. Yes, it's still there, but the point at where it is noticeable is GREATLY changed.

The FS100 is not out yet, so there is still unknowns. Both the AF100 and FS100 have different strengths and weaknesses. But, they are both made FOR film and have a LOT of wonderful features to help with that. FS100 ships at end of may so that might not pass your requirements. (12 days is it?)

But that is my opinion.
 
Well, obviously you know a lot more than any of us do about the 5dmkIII, as well as the 'myiad of other cameras' that are 'just around the corner' so you're probably better informed to make decisions then we are.
 
deltoidjohn said:
Well, obviously you know a lot more than any of us do about the 5dmkIII, as well as the 'myiad of other cameras' that are 'just around the corner' so you're probably better informed to make decisions then we are.
Click to expand...

Knowing they are coming around doesn't mean I know all the pro's and con's on the camera's, for different scenarios!
 
Rick Burnett said:
The FS100 is not out yet, so there is still unknowns. Both the AF100 and FS100 have different strengths and weaknesses. But, they are both made FOR film and have a LOT of wonderful features to help with that. FS100 ships at end of may so that might not pass your requirements. (12 days is it?)

But that is my opinion.
Click to expand...

Okay, good to know. Part of the reason for the vagueness is that it's not necessarily for one specific project, who knows what it may end up being used for. :) Thanks for indulging me!

So based on what I'm reading there, what if I considered the option of getting a 5D for the DoF, but got an AF100 as a second camera for shots which might have a lot of movement from the camera (a fight scene, quick pans, that kind of thing)? I don't know the specs off hand - can they share lenses? How well does the footage edit together (if you've tried it)?

Waiting for 12 days may be a possibility. I'm just trying to inform myself. In terms of filming I'd likely have an audio crew on set, and have an H4N or two recording sound. So that pro feature on the non-dSLR's isn't a huge deal. In terms of form factor I could probably be ready to shoot a lot easier with either the AF100 and FS100 almost out of box - the other's I'd want to consider getting some rigs for.

Now I'm rambling. Thanks for the feedback. :)
 
i dont know of anyone who's singing and dancing about their af100.
most reviews ive read are ho-hum at best.

you might consider and hpx170 for your "action cam"
CCD instead of (c)MOS
pro audio
great tried and true codec
uber-reliable P2 storage
decent in low light
tons of frame rate options

and if you NEED DOF add a 35mm adapter. the DSLR fad has seen the prices on the used market for them fall through the floor
 
wgzn said:
i dont know of anyone who's singing and dancing about their af100.
most reviews ive read are ho-hum at best.

you might consider and hpx170 for your "action cam"
CCD instead of (c)MOS
pro audio
great tried and true codec
uber-reliable P2 storage
decent in low light
tons of frame rate options

and if you NEED DOF add a 35mm adapter. the DSLR fad has seen the prices on the used market for them fall through the floor
Click to expand...

I have an HVX somewhere...Sitting in storage...lol. is the HPX170 a big enough jump to be worth purchasing it over an HVX200a with a redrock (or similar) adapter? And how does it compare to the dSLR's?
 
The FS100 I feel will need a few more things that the AF100 would not, like ND filters right off the bat.

I did a shoot for a movie that will be broadcast on television later this year and I used an AF100 while another person in the crew used a 5D. The footage fit together fine. With the AF100 you still need to be careful with how fast you move, but I found i could even handhold some 85mm shots that I NEVER could have done with the 5D (and the 5D has slightly slower skew than the 7D by the way). What I have found with the AF100 is that it is a lot more resistant to jello (vertical expansion/contraction) which makes a huge difference. For skew, while the lines will be half as slanted as the 5D on a fast pan, they still are noticeable if you don't follow the pan rules for motion picture (I forget exactly what they are but Barry can tell you). They are a good guide to follow.

I also think that using a CCD based camera is a good option as well for fast action, quick moves. I personally am not a fan of 35mm adapters. The light loss is just horrible to me. We had an HVX200 which is already needing a lot of light, then put an adapter on it, I felt like we needed a small sun with us to light scenes :) Further, you then get a HUGE rig and I felt it was not as easy to maneuver as I wanted.

The AF100 and 5D (and the FS100) and all use the same lenses IF you don't lock yourself into lenses that only work on one of them. Also, EOS lenses without manual aperture control do not have an adapter yet to control that. Birger has one coming out very soon for the AF100 that does EOS to m4/3. They also are working on one for the FS100 to go EOS to E-mount. I use EOS lenses so I am waiting for that. The biggest thing is the 5D needs lenses that are for Full Frame 35mm sensors. So amazing lenses like the Tokina 11-16mm are out (unless you use them between 15 and 16mm which does work on a 5D as I've tried it).

Given the AF100 is out, I'd rent one. Seriously. Then you will know if it is the camera for you. Or, wait on the FS100 and rent one, see if you like it. If you are familiar with the HVX then the AF100 will feel right at home to you.
 
as far as final image quality goes. an hpx170 is a pretty significant jump up from a 200. but more a lateral move from a 200a

and as far as "compared" to a DSLR. ive never seen a side by side comparison of the same scene / situation shot on an HD video camera (with or wthout adapter) vs an HDSLR.
the specs, as far as sensor size (light performance) and detail are in favor of the DSLR. but that doesnt always translate 1:1 in a quality discussion when the rubber meets the road.
from what ive shot personally and what ive seen / read online. there are as many arguments against DSLRS as there are for them.
 
Oh absolutely. I can say when we lit the HVX200 up with the proper amount of light, we were always happy with the performance of it. (Never used the 200a though). It's just the amount of light we had to bring was a little crazy to us. Then on another shoot with the HVX and the SGBlade 35mm adapter, the amount of light required went from a lot to insane! :) That said, I thought the results were fantastic. Of course, I am new school so I am not used to how much light people had to use in the past (and I know it has been A LOT).

Again, this comes down to desire. I hate large cameras. I love being able to get my camera into crazy positions because I am an independent filmmaker. I cannot afford to make sets with all these removable walls and such. Sometimes we shoot in locations that we just cannot change a lot and a very sensitive camera allows us to use smaller lights that wont blow the circuit breaker. In some cases, even flashlights in the set to create some cool effects.

I mean, I shot for a whole year with a 7D. Take a look at the scenes in this after the 'what happened last time' over the lake:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfXY4-iG3_E

I think they came out fantastic. No complaints. Even with the sun behind the dog tag and how the highlight blowout worked, just awesome. Yet, I have moved on from the 7D to the AF100, and next to the FS100 (maybe, still need to evaluate it once it comes in). After shooting a few projects with the AF100 I understood what I didn't have with the 7D. Heck, the waveform monitor alone is AMAZING. One of the best tools I have used for nailing exposure.

However, like I've said all along, it really depends. That's why using the HPX170 might be a great idea. Would I should a concert with the AF100, hell no. I'd probably use something like the Sony EX1r myself. Would I do sports with an AF100, hell no. Again, I'd be going for something different with a CCD that used a global shutter. Weight matters to me. Ideally I'd love an F3 in the FS100 size of a body. But in time, that will happen, I am sure! :)
 
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