Ideal Camera For Film School?

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Enjay

Member
We are in the process of setting up, what may be the largest film school in Asia. As HD is now gaining world wide popularity and acceptance, we are looking at the possibility of equipping the school with the Sony HDV (Z1) Camera's (for 1st. Year Students) and then moving them upwards to either a Sony Cine Alta, Varicam or a Viper (for the 2nd. Year Students).

However, since the cameras are an expensive investment, any thoughts on what we should be careful about before making this investment and what peripheral gear would be needed additionally to make things work smoothly, would be highly appreciated.

Finally, your recommedations on the best choice between the Varicam, Cine Alta and / or Viper would be helpful to us as well...

Thanks in advance.

Enjay.
 
Never been to film school, but I would think that first year film students could be taught the basics of compositon, framing, continuity, etc with single chip home video cameras. You can move them up from there.
 
you're asking in a pretty biased forum...

We're all partial to the ag-dvx100a and soon-to-be hvx200

So you want a bunch of high definition cameras for first-year students, and a really nice camera for the second-year students?

I would honestly wait until at least december before you shop for the 1st year cameras, because the hvx200 is going to be released around then, and that's a high definition camera that is going to be amazing if it can do what it says it can.

As far as the 2nd year cameras, I have no experience with them, but varicam and cine alta seem to be the two.

http://www.artadams.net/info/sonyvspanasonic.htm

check that chart out and make your decision based upon some research.

It seems that all three of the high end cameras will do the trick, it just depends on what you'd like to focus on the most as far as features go.
 
film school in asia?
got a site? taking applications already? ;)

i'd love to work in asia... (as a student)
 
I would consider Viper. It is the only HD camera that is 4:4:4. Apart from that the only difference for Panasonic is variable frame speed. An important issue. Buy Zeiss ProHD lenses for the HDcamera. They are AWSOME! A child will see the difference.
 
Thanx for your advice... Well, I have checked out the DVX-100As and must say that I did seriously consider these as well. But unfortunatley their support here in my country (India), apparently stinks (as I have been told by many rental and broadcast companies who use the 100As here). Hence the Sony Z-1s.

The link provided by you has been really helpful. Thanks!

Again, none of the DOPs I have spoken with here have really used any high end HD camera for film, most of which is still being shot only on 16mm amd 35mm. Hence the research bit here locally is difficult. The manufacturers themselves have themselves been quite supportive (obviously... they want their camera's here... ) but again most of the info. coming from them is obviously only the good points... They all say that they are the best...

Hence, I am hoping get some unbiased views from various forums on the web... Any help / info, once again... will be highly appreciated.

Btw, we open in January 2006, so I guess that is enough time to take a decision...
 
I liked the Viper too, when I got a demo of this at the NAB this year. Plus I liked the idea of acquisition unto the Venom Pack. Do the Cine Alta and Varicam also offer the option of recording directly on a disk?
 
I'd say, if you open in January, get HVX. If I was to study in your school I would never demand more. Most of the features of 60k-100k$ cameras for just 6000.
 
"I'd say, if you open in January, get HVX. If I was to study in your school I would never demand more. Most of the features of 60k-100k$ cameras for just 6000."

Except for resolution and color bit depth, and chip size, etc. Depending on the education program this may or may not be an issue. But as a student, I would want to get my hands on anything that was being used at a professional level if possible in addition to the curriculum.

Michael
 
But film school isn't about the gear. Or at least not JUST about the gear. It certainly would help to know how the latest cameras operate, but that is a very small part of learning how to make movies. Besides, who knows what's next in the camera world? The technology of cameras will continue to advance, but the basic principles of filmmaking have long been established. Of course, you may be starting a camera operators school, which is a whole different story. It's great that you are looking into such high end cameras, but I wonder if that money would not be more effective elsewhere. How are you set for audio, grip and lighting gear? What about computers for screenwriting and editing? The camera is often the focus, but it's just one link in the chain. And a skilled craftsmen, well versed in proper filmmaking techniques will make a much better movie on a canon zr-10, than a person with little grounding in the basics will make with the latest badass camera.

Just my .02
 
I would get a few arri or aaton super 16 cameras. You have to teach the kids the discipline of shooting on film. And then let them play with HD once they have film set ethics.
 
MichaelP said:
"I'd say, if you open in January, get HVX. If I was to study in your school I would never demand more. Most of the features of 60k-100k$ cameras for just 6000."

Except for resolution and color bit depth, and chip size, etc. Depending on the education program this may or may not be an issue. But as a student, I would want to get my hands on anything that was being used at a professional level if possible in addition to the curriculum.

Michael
Click to expand...

My sentiments exactly... we do want to get the students to use equipment is currently being used at a professional level. The Z-1's have taken off (as expected) quite well here in India. However, the HD Film camera's are still a bit of a novelty.

But the idea is to rent 16mm & 35mm cameras initially (one of the promoters of the school is also the largest film production houses in the country and they own the 16mm & 35mm cameras... so rentals on these would be easy and cheap for us) and then move the students up to the Cine Alta, Varicam or Viper.

Since the HD Film cameras are still not being used here as much as in the West, we hope to provide the cinematography students with skills on HD so that they can move up the ladder easily and quickly once they start their careers after finishing school.
 
vjbrennan said:
But film school isn't about the gear. Or at least not JUST about the gear. It certainly would help to know how the latest cameras operate, but that is a very small part of learning how to make movies. Besides, who knows what's next in the camera world? The technology of cameras will continue to advance, but the basic principles of filmmaking have long been established. Of course, you may be starting a camera operators school, which is a whole different story. It's great that you are looking into such high end cameras, but I wonder if that money would not be more effective elsewhere. How are you set for audio, grip and lighting gear? What about computers for screenwriting and editing? The camera is often the focus, but it's just one link in the chain. And a skilled craftsmen, well versed in proper filmmaking techniques will make a much better movie on a canon zr-10, than a person with little grounding in the basics will make with the latest badass camera.

Just my .02
Click to expand...

I agree completley... our film school is obviously not JUST about the gear. The basic grounding in the entire process of film making is very important. The gear is only but a means to an end.

Our school, once it opens in January, will offer 7 different areas of specialization in film making and we are looking at a variety of low, intermediate and advanced levels of technology that will be offered to students to complete their respective projects.

For audio, we are looking at Digidesign (a combination of Mbox / 002 labs, to HD1, 2 & 3/Accel Systems). We have 8 audio suites + 1 audio lab. Acoustics being done through out the school by Recording Architecture, UK (they have been involved in doing work for Abbey Road recently). I am considering a variety of consoles, scaling from the Yamaha O2R to the SSL AWS900 (for Music), Euphonix System 5 (for Film Dub / Mix), Icon D-Command (for ADS/Foley Suites), etc. Genelec monitoring through out. Oh... and Disk Based Location Recorders, etc.

For Video, FCP HD Production suite through out, except for 2 suites (we have 5 HD suites + 1, 24 seater lab for video) with AVIDs.

IT... Apple Computers (100+) through out the facility, which will be centrally networked on LAN / SAN. The idea is to create a disk based environment wherein the students can acquire video data unto disk (using Firestore FS-4 Pro HD) and then transfer the same unto the network through one of the ingest stations. Once on the media is on the network, they can then work from any room as needed.

Basically, we are hoping to create a real "state of the art" work environment so that the students can first firmly learn the basics and then explore the various new and advanced technologies / techniques in the art of film making.

I think that the HD / HDV formats will be quite established by the time our first batch graduates (after 2 years in late 2007) and hopefully they then should be able to take advantage of the unique career opportunities that these new formats would present them with.
 
My 2 cents: I teach at a private college film/video & audio courses. I use DVXs because of low cost and excellent performance. So far they have held up pretty well, even when some students are stumped by basic camera operation. We also have Sony DSR 200, 250, 16mm etc... I like the DVX even though they're not typical ENG cameras because they produce a good film like look. I teach narrative film making so I do not want my students shooting projects & getting a video looking type result....in my book that's for news & doc work.

If you want to teach film, start with 35mm SLRs and work up to 16mm & 35 motion cameras. Film causes a discipline ($$$) that video shooters never fully develop. There is much to be said about this discipline. It causes one to think before acting...geez....what a concept!

The HVX will be good for advanced students. For me, HD isn't that big of a deal in a school, it's greater rez, etc... for me the real learning stuff is in shots, composition, camera movement, etc...

Students need to learn basic tool usage and work their way up toward pro gear once they prove to be responsible. It cost far too much to let new students take out expensive gear and trash it. Most of the learning needs to go toward the art anyway and that is really about becoming aware of cinematic storytelling.

For audio, I recommend starting real small and working up toward the big boards.
I use mini disc recorders and mics with Adobe Audition. It goes a huge distance with a good text for covering most all the basics. The software can perform many of the same functions so they learn whats what, and how to use it. The SSL & Euphonix boards are excellent ( big $) for advance studio based recording and real serious students. I would go for Pro Tools software & Boards with a full suite of rack gear to compliment an analog board. Many in the Industry use Pro Tools so you might use & teach it.

Once again the Art of sound, like the Art of Picture, will be the real work & challenge. So to answer your question, the tools are important [the DVX & HVX will do very well] but developing the artist within is what the education is really about.
 
For first year students start them off with simple single chip consumer cameras.The most important part of teaching should be lighting ,framing ,scripting,storyboarding and understanding the basics of cameras.Remember that not only are HD cameras expensive ,so is the computer and editing equipment required to process the film.And don't forget the service and repair costs when ham fisted students start knocking them around.
 
That is why I said "in addition to the curriculum." With two schools being equal in curriculum, I would look to the equipment being used as the tie-breaker. I can't make judgment on the courses as I have never attended, but the original question was about equipment, not academia and how to teach the art of moving picture storytelling.

Michael
 
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