I was looking at the Ninja till i saw this video.
- Thread starter Ozark
- Start date
TheReverend
Well-known member
This shot is FAR too static to prove anything. Find a river scene with the same test, and it won't be so similar...
bgundu
Veteran
bgundu
Veteran
I see... yes that is odd. The Ninja footage may not have been deinterlaced, but even so, it should not have those artifacts.
Crafters of Light
Active member
I have to ask,
Are we comparing native recording from the camera to the HDMI output (with known artifacts of its own)? Would we see the same "distortions" on the unrecorded HDMI straight from the camera?
Are we comparing native recording from the camera to the HDMI output (with known artifacts of its own)? Would we see the same "distortions" on the unrecorded HDMI straight from the camera?
GrandLunar
Active member
I remember I posted a similar question a while back, Barry Green had an amazing response. AVCHD holds up pretty damn well in the end. Will an extra thousand bucks make a huge world of difference?
marlontorres
Well-known member
Honestly, I'm not surprised by that test. I've seen ninja footage and I couldn't tell any difference with the naked eye.
Mike Harvey
Veteran
Depends on what you're going to do with it. For a lot of folks, AVCHD will work fine. For others, 10bit 4:2:2 (even if it's from an 8bit source) is going to make their lives a lot easier. Chances are if you have to ask, you probably aren't the intended market for it.
Mike Harvey
Veteran
And GrandLunar, I in no way mean for my reply to come across as condescending in any way (re-reading it, it may come across like that unintentionally).
David Shapton
Well-known member
Everyone: you can't make quality comparisons using Vimeo or You Tube. How can you make a quality appraisal when you're looking through the fog of a low-bitrate delivery codec (ie the codec used for these web-based video hosting sites?).
Just to be absolutely clear about this: The Ninja does not add motion artifacts. ProRes at 220 Mbit/s is visually lossless. The Ninja's ProRes is Apple-Certified, which means that it is, basically, ProRes, and it is also visually lossless. It does not cause posterisation. It is always 10 bit, even with an 8 bit source, and it is always 4:2:2. 10 bits is good because for each colour per channel you have an additional four levels to play with. 256 levels become 1024 levels. That causes less posterisation, not more.
As I have said elsewhere, you shouldn't expect miraculous improvements to pictures that are already good, but what you will see is that you can push the camera further into difficult material with ProRes than you would be able to with the camera's native codec.
If you take an 8 bit recording, and re-encode it to a differently set-up codec (which is what happens with Vimeo and YouTube) then you will get a result that is even less than 8 bit. Any contours in the original will be recorded as if they were an intentional part of the original image, and then you have to add the new contours caused by the new 8-bit encoding process.
If anyone wants to see Ninja users testifying to the quality of their recordings, just PM me.
Dave Shapton
President
Atomos
Just to be absolutely clear about this: The Ninja does not add motion artifacts. ProRes at 220 Mbit/s is visually lossless. The Ninja's ProRes is Apple-Certified, which means that it is, basically, ProRes, and it is also visually lossless. It does not cause posterisation. It is always 10 bit, even with an 8 bit source, and it is always 4:2:2. 10 bits is good because for each colour per channel you have an additional four levels to play with. 256 levels become 1024 levels. That causes less posterisation, not more.
As I have said elsewhere, you shouldn't expect miraculous improvements to pictures that are already good, but what you will see is that you can push the camera further into difficult material with ProRes than you would be able to with the camera's native codec.
If you take an 8 bit recording, and re-encode it to a differently set-up codec (which is what happens with Vimeo and YouTube) then you will get a result that is even less than 8 bit. Any contours in the original will be recorded as if they were an intentional part of the original image, and then you have to add the new contours caused by the new 8-bit encoding process.
If anyone wants to see Ninja users testifying to the quality of their recordings, just PM me.
Dave Shapton
President
Atomos
Last edited:
PaPa
Major Contributor
ah kk so it is 10 bit, then yeah, definitely worth every penny.
I wonder, with the Ninja, are there any frame rates you are limited to using? I remember reading somewhere that on the Ninja 24p was recorded in a 60i signal meaning that one would have to remove pulldown in post?
Can you not record 60p @ 1080?
If you choose to record on HD instead of SSD, and for some reason you get some bad frames, does the Ninja notify you after recording that here were some disturbances? And if not, is there playback capability to review footage on the unit?
Do you have customers that are on PC? Your site is very Apple biased and I'm wondering if people have had any troubles working with the native codec of the Ninja in Premiere/After Effects on PC.
Does it record audio through hdmi?
Definitely looks interesting if these questions are answered in the fashion I'm hoping for. If so it really acts as giving you a new camera for a pretty cheap price.
I wonder, with the Ninja, are there any frame rates you are limited to using? I remember reading somewhere that on the Ninja 24p was recorded in a 60i signal meaning that one would have to remove pulldown in post?
Can you not record 60p @ 1080?
If you choose to record on HD instead of SSD, and for some reason you get some bad frames, does the Ninja notify you after recording that here were some disturbances? And if not, is there playback capability to review footage on the unit?
Do you have customers that are on PC? Your site is very Apple biased and I'm wondering if people have had any troubles working with the native codec of the Ninja in Premiere/After Effects on PC.
Does it record audio through hdmi?
Definitely looks interesting if these questions are answered in the fashion I'm hoping for. If so it really acts as giving you a new camera for a pretty cheap price.
Last edited:
David Shapton
Well-known member
Within reason, we're only limited to what the camera outputs through HDMI. If it outputs 24p through HDMI we will record that. Same with 25p and 30p. But most cameras don't do that. Instead, they output an interlaced signal containing the progressive one. In the case of 30p and 25p, there is no post-processing required: it looks the same as the original progressive footage, because both of the interlaced fields are derived from the same progressive image. In every respect, it looks the same as progressive.
With 24p, yes, you have to run it through reverse-telecine software. Compressor is an example that works fine, and of course, theres AVSynth on the PC.
We record 720p @ 60 Hz, but not 1080p @ 60 Hz. The data rates are too high for the Ninja's architecture. It's literally twice the data rate and would require more than twice the processing power. This is also true for any other HDMI recorder. If you want to get slow motion, switch to 720p, or record genuinely interlaced 60i (ie with each field separated in time by 1/60th second) and use software to make each field into a frame. You'll lose some horizontal resolution but the results can still look very good. Don't forget that there's nothing that actually plays 1080 60p yet: it's not a broadcast standard or anything like that.
Yes, the Ninja does notify you. You get a "skippy" (a Kangaroo) symbol, obviously, because Atomos is Australian. But you don't see Skippy often. Most Ninja customers are using Hard Disks, and there are very few problems with them, as long as they're used sensibly. For harsh recording conditions, then use SSDs, as you'd expect.
Yes, it is a bit too Apple biased, and we're changing this, because the fact is that you can use ProRes perfectly well on Windows, and it works with Premiere Pro 5.5, Edius and Vegas.
Yes, and - simultaneously if you want - through a stereo analogue input as well. Note that there is an issue with Premiere where it will not accept files with more than two audio tracks in them. Adobe is aware on this and is investigating.
Hope this helps!
Dave Shapton
Atomos
PaPa
Major Contributor
Alright, so no 60p in 1080.
I don't think anyone here will be wanting to record 60p to be played back at 60p but for a great slow motion. I guess for those of us wanting that we are stuck to in camera recording for those select clips.
Not a fan of the 24p wrapper in the 60i. I assume the Samurai will be a solution to this issue? Time is money.
Skippy, that's a good solution, mainly the peace of mind knowing that a take must be redone, or if anything, jumping to the in camera recorded frames for those that need replacing perhaps? Might be a decent solution.
There will be some that have never shot with apple pro res on pc. Hopefully it doesn't give the NLE's like Premiere CS4, or CS5 any issues, or cause any "slowness" or errors that cause NLE's to crash. My guess though is no, it won't.
Good to know about the audio.
And yes it does help! Just need to get that last bit of info on the 24p not being wrapped in a 60i signal. That really is a pain in the kangaroo pouch.
I don't think anyone here will be wanting to record 60p to be played back at 60p but for a great slow motion. I guess for those of us wanting that we are stuck to in camera recording for those select clips.
Not a fan of the 24p wrapper in the 60i. I assume the Samurai will be a solution to this issue? Time is money.
Skippy, that's a good solution, mainly the peace of mind knowing that a take must be redone, or if anything, jumping to the in camera recorded frames for those that need replacing perhaps? Might be a decent solution.
There will be some that have never shot with apple pro res on pc. Hopefully it doesn't give the NLE's like Premiere CS4, or CS5 any issues, or cause any "slowness" or errors that cause NLE's to crash. My guess though is no, it won't.
Good to know about the audio.
And yes it does help! Just need to get that last bit of info on the 24p not being wrapped in a 60i signal. That really is a pain in the kangaroo pouch.
David Shapton
Well-known member
Yes, The Samurai will have real-time reverse-telecine, but software-base dpulldown removal can be pretty fast, as long as the software automatically recognises the start of the cadence.
I've used ProRes in Premiere and Vegas, and it all seems pretty responsive to me. It's a very processor-friendly codec.
Let me know if you have any other questions!
Dave Shapton
Atomos
I've used ProRes in Premiere and Vegas, and it all seems pretty responsive to me. It's a very processor-friendly codec.
Let me know if you have any other questions!
Dave Shapton
Atomos
FWIW, just the other day I did a shoot where I needed outboard recording, but didn't realize it!
Now there's a troubling thing. Doing a shot in an office tower, talking head with tall windows looking out onto hazy cityscape in background. Monitoring with both AF's LCD and the TVLogic monitor via SDI. Key & fill matching outside color temp with some 1/2 CTB. Doubled ND6 across window (behind talent). Looked really nice in the monitors. To be perfect, mebbe woulda been nice to have ND9 instead of 12. But, still very nice look.
UNTIL, got back to edit, ingested as ProResHQ, and, WHAT??? Background was blue/green instead of neutral as we saw in the monitors while shooting! Luckily some CC via limiting took care of it, but a real surprise!
So, there was a situation where AVC codec can bite you in the @ss. Only solution I can see (other than always shooting on external) is to snap off a quick test clip & playback in camera to test what the codec has decided to do with your colors.
Now there's a troubling thing. Doing a shot in an office tower, talking head with tall windows looking out onto hazy cityscape in background. Monitoring with both AF's LCD and the TVLogic monitor via SDI. Key & fill matching outside color temp with some 1/2 CTB. Doubled ND6 across window (behind talent). Looked really nice in the monitors. To be perfect, mebbe woulda been nice to have ND9 instead of 12. But, still very nice look.
UNTIL, got back to edit, ingested as ProResHQ, and, WHAT??? Background was blue/green instead of neutral as we saw in the monitors while shooting! Luckily some CC via limiting took care of it, but a real surprise!
So, there was a situation where AVC codec can bite you in the @ss. Only solution I can see (other than always shooting on external) is to snap off a quick test clip & playback in camera to test what the codec has decided to do with your colors.