I need some mic advice

B

Braindead@70

Well-known member
I have been drafted to video a live country band performance. There is no way they will give me a feed from their mixer soooooo. I will be in the grass 20'-30' from their stage with room to my right and left. I have several Shure SM58s and I might be able to rent a pair of Shure SM57s. I also have a pair (genuine) of Oktava MK-012s and of course a selection of lavs and shotguns.
I have used the Octava mics for recitals, etc but always placed close to the source.

My thinking is to center a pair of SM58s and angle them about 40 degrees. Your thoughts? Has anyone used the Oktava mics in this application?

BTW, each of ten different bands is rehearsing in a different location so I am winging it!

Thanks in advance!
 
The Oktava's are about your only option, the dynamics at that distance will be WAY too far away. I have used Oktava pairs for concert recordings. And I have had them just about that far away, but in a theatre. The "on the grass" implies you will be outdoors. If that is the case you need really good wind protection for the Oktava's. Foam will probably not cut it so it would be a ball gag or a full zeppelin.

The shotguns, if you have a pair, might also work? depends on the band and if you can get coverage at that distance.

If the bands are really loud maybe the dynamics could squeak by? They would be my last option (well, not counting the lav), they are both close up mics and are not going to be happy that far from the action.
 
20-30' outdoors? Ugh. I might walk away from this if they are expecting a decent track. If it's just best-effort and everyone understands that, then take Scott's advice and good luck. Otherwise, insist on getting the Octava's (presumably cardioid or hyper cardioid) closer.
 
Braindead@70 said:
I have been drafted to video a live country band performance. There is no way they will give me a feed from their mixer soooooo. I will be in the grass 20'-30' from their stage with room to my right and left. I have several Shure SM58s and I might be able to rent a pair of Shure SM57s. I also have a pair (genuine) of Oktava MK-012s and of course a selection of lavs and shotguns.
I have used the Octava mics for recitals, etc but always placed close to the source.

My thinking is to center a pair of SM58s and angle them about 40 degrees. Your thoughts? Has anyone used the Oktava mics in this application?
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First, the TapersSection forums are all about exactly this type of recording. You'll find a wealth of information there, everything from "stealthing" to POS (point at stacks) techniques, mics to use, recorders, stands and accessories, power, all that. And yes, a number of people there also do video work.

If it were me I'd want a pair of cards like Sennheiser MKH 40s or 8040s on a stereo space bar about 17-30cm between the capsules, each mic pointed directly at the stack of speakers on its side of the stage. Get them up in the air over the crowd too, maybe 3m or more. You need to get above the chatter, singing, hand clapping, etc. And this is partly why you need a directional mic -- the nulls will help damp out the crowd noises also. It would be helpful if you were in the center of course, but it might well be sufficient if you're not (as long as you're between the stacks somewhere).

Because of the above "requirements" and the desire to not block peoples' sight lines, it's usually best to setup directly in front of the FOH guys (soundboard) -- just don't block their line of sight to the stage or they'll boot you out of the venue. That, and FOH is where the sound it usually best, because they are live mixing and by default they optimize for what they themselves can hear.

Dynamic mics like your Shures aren't likely going to work well because of their low sensitivity.

If you're going to be outside, you'll need wind protection for the mics.

It's a heck of a challenge just to record decent sound in this situation. Sound + video is, well... good luck with it.
 
Braindead@70 said:
There is no way they will give me a feed from their mixer
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What's the problem with getting a mixer feed ?

Most places I've shot at don't mind if I connect a small portable recorder to a stereo out from their mixer (often it's the RCA tape-out connectors), that I leave running next to the mixer for the entire performance. (always make sure to set the recording level low enough to handle anything the mixer might give it)
 
Great advice so far (esp. Don't use the SM58s; not the right task for them. Do scope out what tapers are doing; some of those people have tight budgets, little setup time, and real craft. Get as friendly as you can with the FOH mixers). A couple small additions:

If you can't set up right in front of the FOH mixer, try setting up right behind them.

Get your stand up high; stabilize with as many sandbags as you can.

I'd probably go for an X/Y configuration with small condensers (since it's a stage, you probably don't need the wider field of ORTF...I'm guessing here...depends on how big a stage).

I can see the FOH mixers not wanting to give you a feed...they have enough going on. But perhaps after the gig they give you a copy of their own board recording. Ask a couple days (or a week+ if possible) ahead of time, offer to supply them an extra recorder, bring them a nice gift (a couple artisanal Bourbons? Lots of good ones these days). It's so easy to make a board recording these days I'd think there's a good chance they'll be doing that.

Let us know how this goes! Good luck!
 
Sometimes the person manning the soundboard is a lot more chill than the event organizer. The sound guy will probably let you if you arrive early and ask to plug in to an output, don't count on it though. Sometimes you can find a speaker with a free output to connect to. I've seen radio guys place a mic right up to the front of the speaker, but I've never had to resort to that. With all the handicaps they're throwing at you, a parabolic mic seems like the only option.
 
I concur with the other posts, 57s & 58s are meant to be used in close proximity to the sound source (typically a few inches). The Oktavas would be a better choice (with proper wind protection of cource). Also most self-powered speakers these days have thru-puts, so it should be easy to grab feed from there. Their XLRs are usually line level though, so attenuation would be needed if feeding a mic level input... the same goes for getting a feed form the console.
 
Guys you have been extremely helpful! I just visited TapersSection and now I have it bookmarked. Like myself, the mixer guy has been drafted and the organizer does not want to cause problems. I have a Bose L1 PA and I have set it up for a test with the Oktava mics. The Bose is so strong it can hurt to be in the same room....should be a fair test. I can get closer to the stage speakers. what would be an optimum distance for the two sets of mics?
 
Given we don't know how the band is set up or what capsules you have in the Octavas, the simplest thing to do is to set the Octava mics up in an ORTF configuration. If you don't know what ORTF is, there are plenty of diagrams showing how to set that up. Just google it.

Regarding distance and ORTF distance/angle, here are a couple of links that can help you, depending on what type of pickup pattern you have (cardioid, hyper cardioid).
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/SRAflash.swf
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/stereo-mic-tools/id572383335?mt=8&ign-mpt=uo=8
 
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If you have been asked to do the video by the organiser, and they don't want to cause problems, how the hell are you going to produce something with decent sound - it's madness. If the audio guy has been asked to do good PA sound and they only gave him two mics, he'd be in the same boat.

Why not talk to him and explain your problem. If he is a draftee, his audio could be compromised, and that is what you will be recording - IF everything is miked up. If only a bit of it is miked, then it's even worse. X/Y is pointless because PA systems generally are mixed mono. So if this is the case - why not put one mic centre close to the stage (20ft away will simply be a mess) and dangle the other in front of one of the PA speakers, and then blend those two in mono, or nearly mono?

The organiser clearly is clueless. So many things here can come back and bite you, and the organiser will clearly be one of those who hands out blame - saying it was your fault.
I'm older now - so in these cases, I always say that if there is no budget to do it properly, I don't wish to have my name attached to a train wreck, no matter how good the cause.
 
paulears said:
.... I always say that if there is no budget to do it properly, I don't wish to have my name attached to a train wreck, no matter how good the cause.
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Now there's the best advice you're going to get on this thread. If you have a clueless organizer as Paul says, nothing will explain the awful results no matter what you say in advance or after the show. No one will remember. All they will hear is that terrible track that you made.
 
I agree with Paul and on the flipside I have been asked as a "post" expert to try and sort out too many projects like this and drama shoots that have gone wrong.

The latest one from LA even had huge sections of the location dialogue missing and little shot to shot continuity so with no budget and lack of knowledge from the outset I walk away and let people learn by their mistakes.
 
Wow, I kinda wish I had not asked for advice. The organizer has been advised that I will not put my name on this video due to the audio quality. I look at it this way, it will not be any worse than what the attendees hear.
Per advice from this thread, I will also be using two Marantz recorders for reinforcement....position to be determined....possibly with SM58 mics and pads. I will be testing in my back yard Saturday. Just for S--ts & Giggles, I am going to place a pair of PZM mics on the ground in front of my subs and feed a pair of Tascam recorders. Normally, I have used the PZMs for meetings and conferences but one time I was not allowed to use any mic stands of any kind in front of a live string group ( very formal wedding). I covered a PZM and Marantz recorder with white gaffers tape and laid them on the cement pad in front of the group. The result was surprisingly good. I have no idea what to expect in front of a large speaker! Before anyone asks: the wedding planner was very good to me for several years and the mic, stand and cable was a sticking point with her and the photographer. The flowers decorating the string group's area cost $4000.00....I was paid less than the flowers!
 
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I can agree with the walk away and still admit that more than once I have not walked away. There are lots of reasons to do a gig like this, when from a professional standpoint you shouldn't.

You just have to keep in mind that it will probably be a little bit of hell. Also make sure, as you seem to have, that they should have very low expectations.
What these gigs are not. Chances to expand your clientele (you don't want folks who don't have a budget), "great opportunities" (odds are there will be all kinds of issues and sour experiences tend to rub off on all connected), an IMDB credit (a credit in a nothing production is a negative not a positive - and it can be really hard to get your name off that IMDB credit).

The usual reasons to do it is helping out a friend, who generally will understand the limitations and won't blame you. Helping out a relative, often you don't really have a choice... Helping out a cause you really want to help out, credit doesn't matter and often the bar is so low going in that it will be fine if you get anything usable.

And yes indeed your recording can be a lot worse than what the concert goers experience. Mic's into recorders pick up what is audible, ears into brains interpret what is audible helped along by what is visible and filtered through the emotion of the moment and the company etc.

PZM's are great, when stuck on large flat surfaces, and generally pretty decent even with out. Slap them on a big flat wall and they can be really good. I did some recordings of an outside even with a pair taped on to a large plate glass window that came out surprisingly good.

Your upside here is that you are really recording the event as much as the music (it sounds like) so the broader sound capture can work in your favor. Trying to get good music recording is another matter.
 
Braindead@70 said:
Before anyone asks: the wedding planner was very good to me for several years and the mic, stand and cable was a sticking point with her and the photographer. The flowers decorating the string group's area cost $4000.00....I was paid less than the flowers!
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Madness. Pure madness.

Yet it happens far far too often :-/

Noiz2 said:
And yes indeed your recording can be a lot worse than what the concert goers experience. Mic's into recorders pick up what is audible, ears into brains interpret what is audible helped along by what is visible and filtered through the emotion of the moment and the company etc.
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THIS!!! Many lay people don't understand that simply sticking a mic randomly somewhere will NOT record the same sound as what the audience is also experiencing in the moment.
 
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