djbobbyrhodes
Well-known member
POST DELETED by order of one of our producers.
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I just finished my first script. Critiques?
- Thread starter djbobbyrhodes
- Start date
Hey Bobby,
This is usually a very helpful and friendly place, but it's a little unfair to ask the forum to read ~60 pages of a script from a new user that's missing 10-20 pages and might have spelling errors. After all, you're asking us to donate about an hour and a half of our time to read and provide cogent critique. You're understandably very excited about your draft and want feedback, but why should we have to read a script that hasn't even been proofread yet? Many users offer to swap scripts for this very reason, since providing good criticism is a very demanding job.
All that said, I did read a few pages.
1. Doug was a great show. Thanks for bringing back memories.
2. Too many gerunds. Unless your characters' actions are interrupted by something, there's little reason to use present progressive so much. Avoid "to be" in favor of action verbs when possible.
3. Watch out for over-the-top punctuation. "You're drunk aren't you?!?!"
4. For a script that turns pretty dark, it might not be wise to use all the names from an upbeat cartoon. Unless your goal is to establish a twisted tone.
5. I don't recommend prefacing your work with so many caveats. A simple "all the standard disclaimers apply" would suffice. You're basically undermining your credibility and undercutting whatever initial trust we may want to lend you as a storyteller. You shouldn't be arrogant, but over half of your post bashes your script before we even see page one. Then, after explaining how unpolished your work is, you ask for detailed, constructive criticism.
I usually strive to present a few more positive points of praise. Without having read the entire work however, I'm only able to point out some of your errors. Hope my points were of some use to you.
This is usually a very helpful and friendly place, but it's a little unfair to ask the forum to read ~60 pages of a script from a new user that's missing 10-20 pages and might have spelling errors. After all, you're asking us to donate about an hour and a half of our time to read and provide cogent critique. You're understandably very excited about your draft and want feedback, but why should we have to read a script that hasn't even been proofread yet? Many users offer to swap scripts for this very reason, since providing good criticism is a very demanding job.
All that said, I did read a few pages.
1. Doug was a great show. Thanks for bringing back memories.
2. Too many gerunds. Unless your characters' actions are interrupted by something, there's little reason to use present progressive so much. Avoid "to be" in favor of action verbs when possible.
3. Watch out for over-the-top punctuation. "You're drunk aren't you?!?!"
4. For a script that turns pretty dark, it might not be wise to use all the names from an upbeat cartoon. Unless your goal is to establish a twisted tone.
5. I don't recommend prefacing your work with so many caveats. A simple "all the standard disclaimers apply" would suffice. You're basically undermining your credibility and undercutting whatever initial trust we may want to lend you as a storyteller. You shouldn't be arrogant, but over half of your post bashes your script before we even see page one. Then, after explaining how unpolished your work is, you ask for detailed, constructive criticism.
I usually strive to present a few more positive points of praise. Without having read the entire work however, I'm only able to point out some of your errors. Hope my points were of some use to you.
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djbobbyrhodes
Well-known member
Ok, I totally get where you're coming from. I'm going to go ahead and proofread the thing and then repost it up with a bit less self-loathing. Basically, what happened was that I finished the script. Then I realized that I wanted some people that aren't friends or family to read it. Then I started thinking about how it might suck. And, then I got nervous about putting it out there.
As far as missing 10-20 pages goes, it's not missing. But upon reading through a good chunk of the script, I realized that I had a few questions that I was asking myself which weren't really answered in the script. They weren't plot related, but more character related, and I had the answers to said questions in my head. Which, theoretically could easily be cut from the script/movie in post, as they weren't truly necessary to tell the story in the first place.
And, as far as the cartoon characters goes: I basically had the idea of "What would it be like if the characters from Doug were all high school seniors? Ok. And what would happen to those grown up characters if they were thrust into such a dark and probably morally corrupt situation." So, only if this thing goes in to production someday will the characters be changed.
Mattykins
Cute Member
Read a few pages. Honestly I am not a fan of spinoffs.
1st page - Doug Funnie, what does he look like, act like, describe him. That is the point of introducing a character.
Where are we temporally. There is no signifier of time of day. You need those on the slugs.
A V.O. is not a parenthetical. It comes next to the character line.
Same thing with missing the temporal signifier on the second slug.
Bluffington high, a typical school? What is a typical school. I have several ideas of typical schools in my head. Is the school from High School Musical typical?
Skeeter, describe him. Right now he is just a name. And is Skeeter a male or female (discounting the pre-existing character set)
Characters are only capitalized the first time we are introduced to them.
You don't want to tell us what a character is thinking in his head in an action line. Show us, or tell us somehow.
Okay, now you gave us an improperly formatted slug, but it has a time. Good.
And you described the character of Chalky, also good.
Why tell us the umpire shouts in an action line when you have him speaking on page 2.
I mean, I might be sounding harsh. But you have a lot of work to do. Buy a book on formatting. The Hollywood Standard is good. Or read some scripts and see how they construct the script formally and narratively. I stopped reading at the top of page 2. Partially because of the formatting. I read a lot of scripts, and you can start to tell after a while which are going to not be so hot just based on the first few pages. Of course, I end up reading the whole thing when I have to. But if I don't - I stop whenever I pass judgement. And with yours, it was on page 2.
There is a lot of stuff wrong on the first page alone. It's nothing against you - you said you are new. It's just some stuff you have to keep in mind. Especially when you want to do something you can sell or shop around. By the looks of it, you just wanted to try your hand at it. But for now - the best advice I can give is to read other scripts and learn the formatting. It is critically important.
At least you went ahead with something. Keep working on it though. 63 pages is no easy feat.
1st page - Doug Funnie, what does he look like, act like, describe him. That is the point of introducing a character.
Where are we temporally. There is no signifier of time of day. You need those on the slugs.
A V.O. is not a parenthetical. It comes next to the character line.
Same thing with missing the temporal signifier on the second slug.
Bluffington high, a typical school? What is a typical school. I have several ideas of typical schools in my head. Is the school from High School Musical typical?
Skeeter, describe him. Right now he is just a name. And is Skeeter a male or female (discounting the pre-existing character set)
Characters are only capitalized the first time we are introduced to them.
You don't want to tell us what a character is thinking in his head in an action line. Show us, or tell us somehow.
Okay, now you gave us an improperly formatted slug, but it has a time. Good.
And you described the character of Chalky, also good.
Why tell us the umpire shouts in an action line when you have him speaking on page 2.
I mean, I might be sounding harsh. But you have a lot of work to do. Buy a book on formatting. The Hollywood Standard is good. Or read some scripts and see how they construct the script formally and narratively. I stopped reading at the top of page 2. Partially because of the formatting. I read a lot of scripts, and you can start to tell after a while which are going to not be so hot just based on the first few pages. Of course, I end up reading the whole thing when I have to. But if I don't - I stop whenever I pass judgement. And with yours, it was on page 2.
There is a lot of stuff wrong on the first page alone. It's nothing against you - you said you are new. It's just some stuff you have to keep in mind. Especially when you want to do something you can sell or shop around. By the looks of it, you just wanted to try your hand at it. But for now - the best advice I can give is to read other scripts and learn the formatting. It is critically important.
At least you went ahead with something. Keep working on it though. 63 pages is no easy feat.
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Mattykins
Cute Member
PS. Huge mistake. It will never get passed a reader with the character set you have. Especially with a children's cartoon character. Based on what Eric said above, no one will allow this to happen to the franchise. You would be much better served setting the story in something you can actually produce and get the rights to.
Change the characters, keep a similar outline and go. Because something with a well-known character will never fly.
djbobbyrhodes
Well-known member
I'm totally aware of that. The thing is, we're probably going to film this thing ourselves on NO budget. Maybe like 1-2K. As you probably picked up on, I'm not looking to sell it. Maybe someday after we make our little flick, and hopefully it doesn't suck, I'll take the same script and rewrite it for original characters and settings. I don't want to sound stubborn or like an ass or anything, but this is the way I'm doing it. It's eventually going to be filmed. And when it does, it's going to have the characters from the cartoon, only different. And that almost makes it a dark comedy. And, I'm cool with that. If I get sued, I get sued. They can't take what I don't have, but I can deal with a C&D. BUT, I doubt it'll ever come to that.
And with all that said, I do appreciate you guys taking the time, even if you only get a few pages in with my junked up formatting and whatnot. Every little thing that makes my script better is greatly appreciated.
Correction: Forget what I said about gerunds. I don't think you used any gerunds in what I read, so I'm not sure what I was thinking. The progressive aspect, however, was used a little too heavily.
I'll also mirror what Matty said: the characters and setting have not been introduced effectively. This may be partly because you know that you're making the film and you're already familiar with the cartoon's lore. I'll also reinforce his advice to start with some basic storytelling building blocks. Unfortunately, you're at the revision stage of a work you've committed to produce. In that sense, it's like trying to teach you how to run when you haven't even had the chance to really walk. Hell, most of us here are still learning how to jog! What makes compelling characters? Drama? Pacing? What's interesting?
That said, another great writing resource for you to explore is the forums over at DoneDealPro. Someone over there might be willing to swap scripts with you. Plus, they have some great discussions. We do too and it might be wise to browse some of the past threads here.
I'll also mirror what Matty said: the characters and setting have not been introduced effectively. This may be partly because you know that you're making the film and you're already familiar with the cartoon's lore. I'll also reinforce his advice to start with some basic storytelling building blocks. Unfortunately, you're at the revision stage of a work you've committed to produce. In that sense, it's like trying to teach you how to run when you haven't even had the chance to really walk. Hell, most of us here are still learning how to jog! What makes compelling characters? Drama? Pacing? What's interesting?
That said, another great writing resource for you to explore is the forums over at DoneDealPro. Someone over there might be willing to swap scripts with you. Plus, they have some great discussions. We do too and it might be wise to browse some of the past threads here.
David W. Richardson
Chapelgrove Films
Sure they can. Just ask O.J. They can take future earnings for a long long long time. Lawsuits are not to be tempted lightly.
As for copyright issues, keep in mind you risk more than just being sued -- you risk a straight-out $250,000 fine plus PRISON. So a healthy respect for the copyrights of others is a good idea.
I suspect what you'd have here wouldn't be a copyright issue, it would be trademark infringement. I do think it's interesting, though, in your original post you say that you don't care about other peoples' copyrights, but when it comes to your script you say "...copyright, patent pending, all rights reserved 'cause I said so. "
Not trying to bash you, man. But I have a thing about not respecting the rights of others to control their own work.
djbobbyrhodes
Well-known member
Your kinda misconstruing what I was trying to say.
I meant that I didn't want someone to read pg 1 and then say, "Hey you can't do that!" and then not read it.
AND I meant that I don't care about copyright because I don't think that it's really infringement. And that if some one wants to shut down my non-existent production and wants to take all of our theoretical and currently non-existent 1-2K budget and all then let 'em. But that'll never happen. It's not worth viacom/jumbo pictures/Jim Jenkins/nickelodeon/disney or whoever actually can claim to own the characters' time to come after me.
Besides, I'm claiming fair use because it's parody. Kinda.
You can find some not-so-hot live action Doug stuff on youtube if you want to find it. And no has sued them yet. In fact, their videos haven't been taken down by youtube either.
But, I do get what you're saying.
David W. Richardson
Chapelgrove Films
The thing is, nobody has to sue you -- one person can make one phone call, and the FBI can just march in, arrest you, and prosecute you for a felony. If you're convicted, you get fined $250,000 and can be sent to prison. Last time I looked, the maximum prison sentence was 5 years. If you're cool with taking that risk, that's your decision.
But again, I suspect what you have here (not having read your script) is trademark infringement, not copyright infringement. Still, why take someone else's work? You don't want anyone else taking yours, right?
The fact that someone else is getting away with it doesn't make it right. Or smart. It in no way protects YOU. "So-and-so did it too!" is not a legal defense.
Again, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. It's just that we're in the creative/intellectual property business here -- those of us filmmakers here who are seriously pursuing it in hopes of making a career out of it, that is. Copyrights and trademarks are important to us.
But again, I suspect what you have here (not having read your script) is trademark infringement, not copyright infringement. Still, why take someone else's work? You don't want anyone else taking yours, right?
The fact that someone else is getting away with it doesn't make it right. Or smart. It in no way protects YOU. "So-and-so did it too!" is not a legal defense.
Again, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. It's just that we're in the creative/intellectual property business here -- those of us filmmakers here who are seriously pursuing it in hopes of making a career out of it, that is. Copyrights and trademarks are important to us.
David W. Richardson
Chapelgrove Films
Actually, I may be wrong about this not being a copyright infringement -- maybe it is. I'm no lawyer. Would be wise to consult one.
Suppose the same thing were done with live-action characters. Say I wanted to do a film with the characters of "Leave It To Beaver" -- Beaver, Wally, Eddie Haskell and Lumpy -- all grown up. Without the permission of whoever owns the copyright to that show and those characters, I can't do it legally. I suspect the same holds true of cartoon characters.
Suppose the same thing were done with live-action characters. Say I wanted to do a film with the characters of "Leave It To Beaver" -- Beaver, Wally, Eddie Haskell and Lumpy -- all grown up. Without the permission of whoever owns the copyright to that show and those characters, I can't do it legally. I suspect the same holds true of cartoon characters.
djbobbyrhodes
Well-known member
Stop making so much sense! Sigh. I understand your gripes about copyright concern, but there is no profit involved here either. I'm not selling anything. I just wrote, an interesting story based upon an old(ish) cartoon. And, if this actually does get made, no one is getting paid. It'll be done by five 20-something year old kids in school for the purpose of experience and fun.
If you took those characters from "Leave it To Beaver" and threw them in a slasher film. I'm sure that would be considered parody.
If I change the names of the characters, you wouldn't be able to tell it was Doug in the first place. So, maybe I'll just do that to avoid any flak. The only reason that they were based on those characters in the first place is because it sort of made the movie into a dark comedy. I mean, guns, drugs, sex, and cartoon characters?
But, it's not necessary.
I see where you're coming from David, but not being a lawyer myself either, where would all the spoof films land in regards to trademark infringement and copyright violation? I mean, look at all the Wayans Bros.' material. How about Star Wars spoofs, especially in the world of fan fiction. Perhaps Bobby could use the same "Doug" character attributes but different names to help safeguard himself?
This particular topic might actually make good material for a new thread. I wouldn't mind doing some research if others contributed as well. After all, it's rather common for writers to be inspired by other material.
This particular topic might actually make good material for a new thread. I wouldn't mind doing some research if others contributed as well. After all, it's rather common for writers to be inspired by other material.
Lt_Col_Wade
Active member
Hi Bobby, I would echo the formatting things that have been posted so far and would add to them try to cut the redundancy out of your pages - there are many things that are said in action, then repeated in dialogue. Similarly, try and make every scene necessary in moving the story or arcs forward somehow - what comes to mind is after Doug tells Skeeter to get everyone together for the meeting. Do we really need to see everyone finding out about the meeting? You could cut straight to his house and we would understand how we got there. (also, for heavens sake, do something with the Chalky is gay storyline - why introduce something like that if it doesnt pay off somehow?) Basically just try to streamline the read - its a bit clunky, which is often the case with first drafts, but its pretty good as far as your first script in terms of formatting and generally feeling like a script.
Now, to touch on the whole parody issue (and not from a copyright standpoint). Im really glad I saw that you acknowledged the dark comedy of the piece. The problem is that right now it feels like the movie is torn between two worlds. I cant tell if youre trying to be funny or want to make a serious story.
It is funny, but right now that is purely because it is the characters from Doug in messed up situations. Theres no actual comedy, jokes etc. The problem is, if thats what youre banking on, it wont last for a whole hour. Because theres no jokes or tipping of the hat that youre doing this for conscious comedic effect, an audience or reader might convince themself that youre being serious. To me as a reader, it did feel like you were trying to play it straight drama, and I gotta tell you its way melodramatic right now. I would work on cutting some of your expository dialogue, even if you want to play dark comedy, and bring something new to these situations which weve seen plenty a time before (the angry drunk, the accidental overdose, the coverup etc.).
Basically, if you want to play it straight, I would just cut out everything Doug about it because this could make an interesting story without that (and would be a better test of you as a writer as previously mentioned), but if you are going for that dark comedy, put more comedy in there! Also, if you keep the parody aspect, I might think about bringing us into this new dark world sooner. As it stands, the first handful of scenes could be a straight Doug adaptation and we dont really see what youre doing until Patty and Chad, which, because we dont have any hint of what youre doing beforehand, comes off as melodrama.
Best of luck!
Now, to touch on the whole parody issue (and not from a copyright standpoint). Im really glad I saw that you acknowledged the dark comedy of the piece. The problem is that right now it feels like the movie is torn between two worlds. I cant tell if youre trying to be funny or want to make a serious story.
It is funny, but right now that is purely because it is the characters from Doug in messed up situations. Theres no actual comedy, jokes etc. The problem is, if thats what youre banking on, it wont last for a whole hour. Because theres no jokes or tipping of the hat that youre doing this for conscious comedic effect, an audience or reader might convince themself that youre being serious. To me as a reader, it did feel like you were trying to play it straight drama, and I gotta tell you its way melodramatic right now. I would work on cutting some of your expository dialogue, even if you want to play dark comedy, and bring something new to these situations which weve seen plenty a time before (the angry drunk, the accidental overdose, the coverup etc.).
Basically, if you want to play it straight, I would just cut out everything Doug about it because this could make an interesting story without that (and would be a better test of you as a writer as previously mentioned), but if you are going for that dark comedy, put more comedy in there! Also, if you keep the parody aspect, I might think about bringing us into this new dark world sooner. As it stands, the first handful of scenes could be a straight Doug adaptation and we dont really see what youre doing until Patty and Chad, which, because we dont have any hint of what youre doing beforehand, comes off as melodrama.
Best of luck!