FS7: I hate to bring this up but.... why does not everyone go for the URSA MINI PRO?

[Gizmosgadget]

ENG, professional sports coverage, concerts, places of worship, reality TV, any and all live TV broadcasts use and will continue to use the traditional shoulder design. You just can't cram that much tech into a compact body. Not to mention I/O capability like fibre. I seriously miss shooting with an ENG rig. The F55 ticked all the boxes at the time so that's what I went with. The 450 looks very compelling.

 

[Doug Jensen]

You should try the ENG dock for your F55. I added it to mine a couple of summers ago and never looked back. It transformed the camera into a F55/F800 hybrid. It's not as ergonomic and comfortable to shoot with as the Z450, but I think it's a close as I'm going to get in a 35mm sensor camera. The differences between lenses is really the main thing that can't be overcome with a camera like the F55 (without severely compromising image quality) no matter what we do. But of course, the 2/3" isn't going to get the same shallow DoF or shoot 120 fps 4K RAW. Pros and cons to everything.

I have been lobbying Sony for a couple of years to build my dream camera, which is basically a Z450 style body with a 35mm sensor, variable ND, HFR, and a few other modifications. They have taken me seriously and I actually had a meeting with a Japanese product manager and a couple of engineers to look over my proposal. I don't know what will happen, but they took it very seriously. It would be a great camera.

 

[optitek]

Today there are so many configurations that exclude a shoulder mounted form factor while offering very attractive and unique image aquisition (stabilized, areal, low/high angle, confined spaces, POV to name a few) Shoulder mount just won't work, no matter how much money you throw at it. Combine that with the availability of other form factors that can be built up to "shoulder mount" or stripped down to "sensor box" and the outcome is clear. More of the latter, less of the former as we move forward....

 

[Jason R. Johnston]

I mostly disagree. Shoulder mount is not coming back because it never went away. They exist as broadcast cams foremost and many of the other uses were adaptations. I do agree there are better solutions for other genres, always something smaller, faster, more convenient that speak to their favor but it works both ways.

Exactly. Also, that Z450 is pretty.

 

[Tom Roper]

Today there are so many configurations that exclude a shoulder mounted form factor while offering very attractive and unique image aquisition (stabilized, areal, low/high angle, confined spaces, POV to name a few) Shoulder mount just won't work, no matter how much money you throw at it. Combine that with the availability of other form factors that can be built up to "shoulder mount" or stripped down to "sensor box" and the outcome is clear. More of the latter, less of the former as we move forward....

What you are saying is since shoulder mount cannot be all things, it has no future against other form factors that could potentially be built up or stripped down. So what is the one form factor that does all the things in your mind that would put the shoulder mount out to pasture? Bet 'ya an Elon Musk signed dollar you can't name one where the same thing couldn't be said.

 

[Doug Jensen]

+1

 

[optitek]

"Cat on a shoulder" is fine for big heavy cameras with film magazines. The heavy magazines gave it a proper balance and stayed out of the way in that configuration (so did the massive batteries and vintage power hungry electronics in broadcast cameras)Today, productions with variety of, mostly super light weight (drone, gimbal, run and gun) , setups call for different convention. I agree with you that most of these boxes are anti-ergonomic but IMO with all the modern production requirements, the camera design should go this direction. The key is to keep it small and light enough ...none of the boxes mentioned above are small and light enough. The manufacturers still seem to follow the model "sell the cameras by pound(or kilo)" but they will get it eventually. Robust does not have to mean heavy and big metal brick....
View attachment 131769

Making the lens detachable on the XC15 would surely take the cake (but possibly cannibalize the C series camera sales) Such are the corporate ways....

What you are saying is since shoulder mount cannot be all things, it has no future against other form factors that could potentially be built up or stripped down. So what is the one form factor that does all the things in your mind that would put the shoulder mount out to pasture? Bet 'ya an Elon Musk signed dollar you can't name one where the same thing couldn't be said.

This one, without the doubt. with, S35,4/3" sensor, minimum 1080 screen, detachable VF, removable lens , detachable handle. This of course applies to genres that benefit from larger sensors and the related benefits of DR and LL (low light). The genres that benefit more from deep DOF (action cams(tiny already), broadcast???) and don't require LL sensitivity will not be infiltraded so quickly but the small size and weight , portability really benefits everyone so....

 

[Run&Gun]

No matter how you "build-up" a little box camera, it's still not a real shoulder mount camera. The ergonomics just are not there. And when you're shooting off the shoulder, that is very important.

It's honestly kind of annoying to keep hearing that "big cameras should be dead", when people that have been shooting for 10, 15, 20+ years, day-in and day-out are saying that we want ENG style cameras. Little cameras have their advantages in certain situations. But there are a lot of us out there better served by an ENG form factor for the majority of our shoots. Just because I may need a small(er) form factor camera 5%-10% of the time, doesn't mean that I want to sacrifice for the other 90%-95% of the time. I've been doing this over 20 years and I want a true ENG style camera. The Amira is sorta close, but still lacking a lot(obviously not image quality). Doug and I had a good list of our "dream" cameras a while back on another thread.

 

[Tom Roper]

This one, without the doubt. with, S35,4/3" sensor, minimum 1080 screen, detachable VF, removable lens , detachable handle. This of course applies to genres that benefit from larger sensors and the related benefits of DR and LL (low light). The genres that benefit more from deep DOF (action cams(tiny already), broadcast???) and don't require LL sensitivity will not be infiltraded so quickly but the small size and weight , portability really benefits everyone so....

Shoulder cam: No 30 minute recording limit, no overheating, built-in ND, dual slot media, switch selectable WB, accessible power management, switch selectable ISO, 4 ch balanced audio inputs, low noise pre-amps, zoom rocker, timecode in and out, audio monitoring, external pots for levels, SDI In/Out, DC-In/Out, run your light off internal power, slot for RF receiver, balances on your shoulder, shoot with just one hand.

Pros and cons for the GH5 and GH5s: I own them both, use them both every weekend. People not used to being filmed are more comfortable in front of a mirrorless, often not knowing it is video. Crowded drunken dance floors are a place where a shoulder cam could ***** slap a guest in the jaw and you might not see them standing to your right. It's a crash cam ecosystem but the little cam *will* get knocked over. A 2/3" inch shoulder cam has balance and stability, smooth zooming and focusing, wide and long reach zooms, accessible controls easily switched on the fly without diving into menus. You need lights with either one. Audio is super important, your recorder/mixer is built into the eng cam.

Aside from weddings, I can't think of too many events where a 2/3 eng cam would not be overall better and easier to use, solving various problems of audio, video and stability. At the end of the day, it would be nice if I could just stick the shoulder cam in a bag and go without having to pack up all the bits and pieces of 4/3 mirrorless kit.

 

[Gizmosgadget]

You should try the ENG dock for your F55. I added it to mine a couple of summers ago and never looked back. It transformed the camera into a F55/F800 hybrid. It's not as ergonomic and comfortable to shoot with as the Z450, but I think it's a close as I'm going to get in a 35mm sensor camera. The differences between lenses is really the main thing that can't be overcome with a camera like the F55 (without severely compromising image quality) no matter what we do. But of course, the 2/3" isn't going to get the same shallow DoF or shoot 120 fps 4K RAW. Pros and cons to everything.

I have been lobbying Sony for a couple of years to build my dream camera, which is basically a Z450 style body with a 35mm sensor, variable ND, HFR, and a few other modifications. They have taken me seriously and I actually had a meeting with a Japanese product manager and a couple of engineers to look over my proposal. I don't know what will happen, but they took it very seriously. It would be a great camera.

I totally forgot about the ENG kit. Does it still work with the R7? That would really help with getting more weight further back to offset the weight of the lenses.

 

[abreu-canedo]

This conversation took a turn!

Horses for courses...and preferences, of course.

Fair to say though, the most used Cinema camera is the Arri Alexa...which is still a shoulder form factor. It actually has a curve on the bottom of the body of the camera. And if you ask top DPs they'll mostly say that for handheld, weight is good and creates the best movement within the frame...despite the chiropractor bills

But everyone is welcome to prefer what they prefer. And whether or not shoulder mount will be obsolete, well, time will tell. But if you need eye-level handheld, a well balanced 15-25lbs rig on the shoulder is very graceful. Most top DPs seem to agree. But if you need handheld from the chest or waist, then that's a different story. I hope all form factors remain available for DPs to choose the right tool for the shot. Not one tool for all jobs, but the right tool for the job.

 

[optitek]

No matter how you "build-up" a little box camera, it's still not a real shoulder mount camera. The ergonomics just are not there. And when you're shooting off the shoulder, that is very important.

It's honestly kind of annoying to keep hearing that "big cameras should be dead", when people that have been shooting for 10, 15, 20+ years, day-in and day-out are saying that we want ENG style cameras. Little cameras have their advantages in certain situations. But there are a lot of us out there better served by an ENG form factor for the majority of our shoots. Just because I may need a small(er) form factor camera 5%-10% of the time, doesn't mean that I want to sacrifice for the other 90%-95% of the time. I've been doing this over 20 years and I want a true ENG style camera. The Amira is sorta close, but still lacking a lot(obviously not image quality). Doug and I had a good list of our "dream" cameras a while back on another thread.

I don't think it would need to be "built" to a shoulder mount. The only reason shoulder mount exists is old tech with massive power hungry electronics. I think not taking advantage of miniaturization potential of modern tech will break the cameraman back- literally and figuratively. A modified handycam form factor like the xc15 with a focus wheel - a hybrid auto/manual focus that would provide the third point of support that can be stripped down for remote application is a much better solution in every respect.
BTW Sony made a shoulder mount camcorder with large sensor- the F9000 PL or something like that. Where are they now?- on ebay for $1000.

 

[JCummings]

OK, let's talk about massive, power hungry electronics. My F5 on a shoot today with a shoulder pad/bridgeplate, top and side cheese plate, grips, mattebox, rods, Teradek transmitter, Metabones FZ-EF, Lectro SRC and a TC sync box and brick battery. Weighs way more than any Betacam-style camera I ever used.

I gotta think a shoulder cam could save a few pounds by integrating at least a couple of those things. I'd seriously look at one.

 

[Run&Gun]

OK, let's talk about massive, power hungry electronics. My F5 on a shoot today with a shoulder pad/bridgeplate, top and side cheese plate, grips, mattebox, rods, Teradek transmitter, Metabones FZ-EF, Lectro SRC and a TC sync box and brick battery. Weighs way more than any Betacam-style camera I ever used.

I gotta think a shoulder cam could save a few pounds by integrating at least a couple of those things. I'd seriously look at one.

That's one of the rubs. By the time you build it up and add some of the things that are built-in to an ENG camera, it's heavier and not as well balanced and laid out.

 

[Run&Gun]

I don't think it would need to be "built" to a shoulder mount. The only reason shoulder mount exists is old tech with massive power hungry electronics. I think not taking advantage of miniaturization potential of modern tech will break the cameraman back- literally and figuratively. A modified handycam form factor like the xc15 with a focus wheel - a hybrid auto/manual focus that would provide the third point of support that can be stripped down for remote application is a much better solution in every respect.
BTW Sony made a shoulder mount camcorder with large sensor- the F9000 PL or something like that. Where are they now?- on ebay for $1000.

But the shoulder is still a great place to put the camera for handheld work. Your shoulder is supporting the bulk of the weight and your hands are free to control the camera/lens and make adjustments instead of supporting the camera AND having to make adjustments.

They could take advantage of miniaturization and lighten it up in the right spots and keep it all balanced, but the ENG form factor is still good.

 

[Andrew Stone]

I have been lobbying Sony for a couple of years to build my dream camera, which is basically a Z450 style body with a 35mm sensor, variable ND, HFR, and a few other modifications. They have taken me seriously and I actually had a meeting with a Japanese product manager and a couple of engineers to look over my proposal. I don't know what will happen, but they took it very seriously. It would be a great camera.

Thanks for this Doug. Hope something like this comes to market.

 

[Doug Jensen]

I totally forgot about the ENG kit. Does it still work with the R7? That would really help with getting more weight further back to offset the weight of the lenses.

Yes, it works great with the R7 which is always attached to my camera whether I'm shooting RAW or not.

 

[morgan_moore]

Ive not really been commenting as this is not a form factor thread.

But it seems to me that the best form are..

a cube.. with modular back extensions (VT, wireless audio, focus receiver etc)

or an ENG form - but to me ideally smaller and lighter.

Both forms seem legit.

In the middle we have things like the FS7 and ursa which are IMO a bit of a dogs dinner. DLSRs with wires sticking out the side and stuff bolted on the weak hotshoe are also just toys really, IMO

 

[IronFilm]

In the middle we have things like the FS7 and ursa which are IMO a bit of a dogs dinner. DLSRs with wires sticking out the side and stuff bolted on the weak hotshoe are also just toys really, IMO

Maybe if they had a couple of cheese plate surfaces built into it? For easy robust mounting of extras

 

[morgan_moore]

Maybe if they had a couple of cheese plate surfaces built into it? For easy robust mounting of extras

Yep they also have other errors in design (I know the 7 well not the ursa)

-mass pointlessly raised at rear
-rear roundness annoying for vlock or other modules
-minimal mount points on bottom (FS7 is good at top)
-sony hotshoe lav system is stupid

etc.

I think the F5/55 is far better in form and with the modular raw recorder, really on the right lines - just needs HDtransmit module, audio recieve module, FIZ receive module etc to be made available.
Almost my perfect shape of camera (apart from the XLR position)
and no lead for remote placing of the Raw module

Shoulderwise the amera is highly underated - I love the thin form which keeps it in above your spine and also the built in slide plate for perfect balance as you cycle lenses.