i don't know about the ex-1

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Hey kyledroid, check out lots of EX1 clips at Vimeo. Scroll through them, there are plenty of videos with panning and don't show skewing. I'd look at all the various clips you see as a whole and wouldn't put as much weight on the "I know a guy who saw someone post something on a forum", etc. There are thousands and thousands of these cameras producing amazing footage and people are posting great stuff online, even panning shots... now and then you'll see something extreme and people REALLY focus on those few examples. I've read if you really want to do a quick pan and make people dizzy, turn off the shutter. Hey, I'm just here to say look at all the evidence around you and you'll see great panning results with the EX1 too.
 
Buck Forester said:
I've read if you really want to do a quick pan and make people dizzy, turn off the shutter.
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Turning off the shutter makes no difference in the amount of leaning that happens.

Hey, I'm just here to say look at all the evidence around you and you'll see great panning results with the EX1 too.
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When used properly, slowly enough, yes. And if you can guarantee that you'll always be able to stay within those restrictions, sure -- go ahead.

Just don't stick your head in the sand and pretend there aren't any complications due to a rolling shutter, because there unquestionably are. Learn what they actually are, what you can do, and what you can't do. THEN you're informed enough to make a decision.
 
Just don't stick your head in the sand and pretend there aren't any complications due to a rolling shutter, because there unquestionably are.
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Hola, Barry! I'm not sticking my head in the sand and pretending there aren't any possible rolling shutter issues. Just the opposite. In fact it was from the few horror stories I've seen posted in a couple forums that made me really investigate it. What I have found through lots of research and watching footage is that it's over hyped. Yes, be aware of it, but some people make it seem much worse than it is. The 'restrictions' you mention to stay within are not THAT restricted from what I've seen. I guess you can call me a counterweight to the people who pretend the complications are much worse than they are. :Þ All in good nature... hey, they're just video cameras! They're all pretty darn good. Anyway, I'm not sure how just saying, "it ain't as bad as some make it seem" is sticking my head in the sand. Maybe there's middle ground here, maybe it's not as bad you make it seem, and I make it seem less an issue than it is. Ha! Rock-n-roll.
 
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I wasn't singling you out, I was making a general observation to all readers, so please don't think I was telling you that you were sticking your head in the sand! Sorry if it came off that way.
 
No worries, I didn't take it that way on a "personal" level, we're just talking cameras here, I was just responding generally too, in terms of being a 'representative' of 'hi, panning with the EX1 isn't THAT bad". ha! But I wouldn't mind sticking my head in the sand if it was on a beach in, oh, say Tahiti.
 
doofalot said:
i just keep hearing horror stories about this baby but i don't know how many of them are relevant for real life use in narrative filmmaking and how many of them are people trying to show the theoretical limits of the camera in extreme situations.

will the ex-1 hold up in a chase sequence? a fight sequence in a boxing ring? a martial arts showdown?

or is it only incredible when philip bloom aligns the sun and stars for some breathtaking nature photography?

has anyone seen the ex1 results for situations that are realistic for narrative film but will create supposed challenges for the ex1 like fights and chases? are the fighters all bendy and wobbly and diagonal?
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Okay here is a test i performed, just for you. This isn't the Sony Ex1 but the consumer grade Canon HF10. It has a cmos chip so the results should be the worst for this kind of test.

Remeber this is 17mbs footage not 35mbs like the sony ex does.

This is over the top shakiness. I just put the strap around my hand, ran, walked and stopped whip panning the camera in any direction.

If anyone wants me too, next week I can do a test with a hand held stabilizer (not a steadicam) for more of a real world look at run and gun shooting with cmos cams. I just wanted to go to the extreme end of shakiness first and from there you might be able to base a judgement on.

Details of shooting and post are detailed on the linked page.


Warning: if you get sick watching real shakycam footage do not watch this.


http://www.vimeo.com/1187666
 
I do know about the EX1. I have two of them and I'm upgrading to the EX3 for multi-cam purposes (time code, gen lock). We shot lots of soccer footage, monkey cam style, and had no problems with the so-called rolling shutter phenomenon. I have to think people are using weird set ups to get that effect. These cameras are rock solid and there is no easier or more affordable way to get full HD images for your project.
 
Buck Forester said:
Hey kyledroid, check out lots of EX1 clips at Vimeo. Scroll through them, there are plenty of videos with panning and don't show skewing. I'd look at all the various clips you see as a whole and wouldn't put as much weight on the "I know a guy who saw someone post something on a forum", etc. There are thousands and thousands of these cameras producing amazing footage and people are posting great stuff online, even panning shots... now and then you'll see something extreme and people REALLY focus on those few examples. I've read if you really want to do a quick pan and make people dizzy, turn off the shutter. Hey, I'm just here to say look at all the evidence around you and you'll see great panning results with the EX1 too.
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i've watched a lot of those very same clips.
i don't find the skew all that bad but some of the wobbliness, especially in the vertical plane is - - - kind of problematic. i even see it pop up in some otherwise professional and gorgeous shots clearly done by trained professionals.

and in pans at almost any speed other than 14 seconds to get across frame on these vimeo clips i tend to see worse stuttering than on other cameras - and i am trying to convince myself that i don't - and i am wondering if that is really due to the camera (theoretically it shouldn't be) or if it is due to some other workflow step in between image acquisition and uploading to vimeo.
 
mico said:
Okay here is a test i performed, just for you. This isn't the Sony Ex1 but the consumer grade Canon HF10. It has a cmos chip so the results should be the worst for this kind of test.

Remeber this is 17mbs footage not 35mbs like the sony ex does.

This is over the top shakiness. I just put the strap around my hand, ran, walked and stopped whip panning the camera in any direction.

If anyone wants me too, next week I can do a test with a hand held stabilizer (not a steadicam) for more of a real world look at run and gun shooting with cmos cams. I just wanted to go to the extreme end of shakiness first and from there you might be able to base a judgement on.

Details of shooting and post are detailed on the linked page.


Warning: if you get sick watching real shakycam footage do not watch this.


http://www.vimeo.com/1187666
Click to expand...

okay well thanks for running that test.
it definitely was disgusting and a giant turn off for rolling shutters but i am also aware that it was worst case in the sense of filming apparatus and technique and also an inferior camera.
but yeah that was pretty gross and i think the sony cmos department is probably hiring a hitman to take you out right now.
 
Then don't buy a CMOS camera?

But since you won't buy a CMOS, don't buy a RED either.

People ***** about the rolling shutter issues all the time. Because of a few clips online with insane whip pans, insane movement.

There are terrible images of the DVX online too, and HVX. Are there issues with the CMOS chip? Yep. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

I've said before, I have an HV20 CMOS camera. And never had an issue with the rolling shutter. If you are looking for the god of all cameras, you aren't going to find it below the 10k line.

If you want a near perfect 3CCD camera, buy yourself an F23.

I don't understand why people ask about the cameras knowing full well they already hate the concept of an affordable HD camera. People have different opinions on the camera. Why do we constantly argue about it. If you don't like the concept of a CMOS cam, cool. If you do, cool as well.

There are many people shooting on the EX line and don't have issues. The small percentage that do rant about it on a daily basis. More rant about it without ever using the camera. By that account, no one would fly because a few planes a year go down.

Fact of the matter is, the perfect camera would not be found at the 10k or less price line. Don't like it, don't buy it.
 
Mattykins said:
Then don't buy a CMOS camera?

But since you won't buy a CMOS, don't buy a RED either.

People ***** about the rolling shutter issues all the time. Because of a few clips online with insane whip pans, insane movement.

There are terrible images of the DVX online too, and HVX. Are there issues with the CMOS chip? Yep. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

I've said before, I have an HV20 CMOS camera. And never had an issue with the rolling shutter. If you are looking for the god of all cameras, you aren't going to find it below the 10k line.

If you want a near perfect 3CCD camera, buy yourself an F23.

I don't understand why people ask about the cameras knowing full well they already hate the concept of an affordable HD camera. People have different opinions on the camera. Why do we constantly argue about it. If you don't like the concept of a CMOS cam, cool. If you do, cool as well.

There are many people shooting on the EX line and don't have issues. The small percentage that do rant about it on a daily basis. More rant about it without ever using the camera. By that account, no one would fly because a few planes a year go down.

Fact of the matter is, the perfect camera would not be found at the 10k or less price line. Don't like it, don't buy it.
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yeah i guess. just trying to learn as much as i can about it and its practical applications without spending $1000 to do so. and maybe even help clarify things for others a little as i go through the process myself.

i seriously would love to see the great narrative ex1 footage you're referring to though. so far i have not seen much of it. one fellow did a great job with the short whose name eludes me right now - - pretends to have a date with a girl in the classifieds - - and it made the ex1 look great but there are other genres of filmmaking that will exacerbate the supposed ex1 problems to a greater extent and i am just trying to figure out as best i can if the ex1 can handle them.

i'd love to see some fantastic car-mounted ex1 footage.

i'd love to see some fantastic ex1 whip pans in narrative work as justified by the story.

i'd love to see some fantastic vertical pans at more than a crawl.

i'm not saying they don't exist. i'm not saying i hate cmos. i don't really even know enough firsthand to have a strong opinion. i'm not saying that people haven't achieved these great shots with the ex1. and the vast majority of what is available online may be biased and dedicated to exposing the flaws of the camera. but the fact is that so far i haven't found the great clips where the camera handles moderate situations to be readily abundant.
 
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mico said:
Okay here is a test i performed, just for you. This isn't the Sony Ex1 but the consumer grade Canon HF10. It has a cmos chip so the results should be the worst for this kind of test.

Remeber this is 17mbs footage not 35mbs like the sony ex does.

This is over the top shakiness. I just put the strap around my hand, ran, walked and stopped whip panning the camera in any direction.

If anyone wants me too, next week I can do a test with a hand held stabilizer (not a steadicam) for more of a real world look at run and gun shooting with cmos cams. I just wanted to go to the extreme end of shakiness first and from there you might be able to base a judgement on.

Details of shooting and post are detailed on the linked page.


Warning: if you get sick watching real shakycam footage do not watch this.


http://www.vimeo.com/1187666
Click to expand...

for what its worth i did learn some from your test and knowing your exact circumstances and what you did in post - if you do want to do the next step of your test - - the stabilizer - - i for one would watch it.
 
of course philip bloom's (untitled) about the guy and the priest in the train station is also another nice piece of narrative work on the ex1 - - but again, while the photography is excellent, it did little to stretch the technical bounds of the camera.
 
There's an amazing amount of negative nit picking about this camera's rolling shutter.

I must be blind or dense. In all the shooting I've done, most of which was handheld, I haven't seen much objectionable footage. The only time it was a problem was when I tried doing a slo-mo with pixel motion turned on in After Effects.

For the most part, I'm seeing great dynamic range, good color and a lot of detail. And a codec that seems to handle anything it encounters.

My only gripe is the lack of a pre-record cache.

That, and the control markings that seem to rub off easily.
 
DCSensui said:
There's an amazing amount of negative nit picking about this camera's rolling shutter.

I must be blind or dense. In all the shooting I've done, most of which was handheld, I haven't seen much objectionable footage. The only time it was a problem was when I tried doing a slo-mo with pixel motion turned on in After Effects.

For the most part, I'm seeing great dynamic range, good color and a lot of detail. And a codec that seems to handle anything it encounters.

My only gripe is the lack of a pre-record cache.

That, and the control markings that seem to rub off easily.
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awesome man, im glad to see people having positive experiences. i'd love to check out some of your stuff if youre willing to pass on a link. the camera is still pretty new so there really isnt the public library of narrative work out there that exists for the hvx.
 
doofalot said:
yeah i guess. just trying to learn as much as i can about it and its practical applications without spending $1000 to do so. and maybe even help clarify things for others a little as i go through the process myself.

i seriously would love to see the great narrative ex1 footage you're referring to though. so far i have not seen much of it. one fellow did a great job with the short whose name eludes me right now - - pretends to have a date with a girl in the classifieds - - and it made the ex1 look great but there are other genres of filmmaking that will exacerbate the supposed ex1 problems to a greater extent and i am just trying to figure out as best i can if the ex1 can handle them.

i'd love to see some fantastic car-mounted ex1 footage.

i'd love to see some fantastic ex1 whip pans in narrative work as justified by the story.

i'd love to see some fantastic vertical pans at more than a crawl.

i'm not saying they don't exist. i'm not saying i hate cmos. i don't really even know enough firsthand to have a strong opinion. i'm not saying that people haven't achieved these great shots with the ex1. and the vast majority of what is available online may be biased and dedicated to exposing the flaws of the camera. but the fact is that so far i haven't found the great clips where the camera handles moderate situations to be readily abundant.
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I've shot vehicle mounted footage with the EX1 out the sunroof of a van going 100kph at night and it looks amazing. Im sure if I had zoomed into the freeway side railing It would have had some skew but hey. I dont have time to post footage because I, like alot of EX1 owners are too busy getting out there and shooting cool stiuff at the moment. BUY THE CAMERA!
 
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