HVX200a vs. cameras, help! I'm drowning in choice

K

khazk

New member
I'm facing a large decision here, large enough to stop me from lurking and create an account! I am in Canada so please take that into consideration (NTSC, about a 1.5x price addition to US market price)

I am a film student looking for a production-quality camera for single-camera shoots (also, as a master camcorder for rental-supplemented multicamera shoots). I am in the market for one of the HVX200a's (the pro-shop counter jockey told me they addressed some issues with the 200-vanilla version). I have heard the P2 cards have dropped to about 2/3 to 1/2 of the original price a few months ago and that Panasonic is throwing in a 16GB P2 with camera purchase. This makes the camera a contender against the EX1 which was my original favorite due to the CMOS 1/2" chips (My lighting abilites (gear-wise) are a little less than acceptable right now and CMOS makes that a bit easier to handle...plus, I prefer as much DOF as possible) and the broadcast-minimum 35Mbps bitrate. I am also looking at the XH-A1 as a workhorse camera, since it seems rather popular (although I am perhaps a bit too eager to drop tape altogether, the savings on cost leave more for gear acquisition like tripod, adapters, etc).

I have a few questions and concerns before I blow a lot of student loan money on the camera itself:

  • Is the 100Mbps a lie? I mean, I have heard such conflicting statements about "imaging processors" and "formats" and "sensor size" and "true 1080p" that this almost-triple-the-bitrate-of-the-eX1 seems a little far-fetched. Does the 100Mbps only record onto P2 cards? I'm sorry if I'm a bit confused, as I've only ever used the DVPRO 25/50 codecs in FCP and I am unfamiliar with AVCHD/HDV/XDCAM HD/DVCPro HD formats...
  • Does the lack of iris ring annoy you? I have never used a camera with such an awkwardly placed iris dial (although it could be worse), but then again a camera operator/DP should really not put himself in a lighting situation where the iris need be adjusted frequently...is it a non-issue?
  • Can this purchase be justified when a cheaper, SDHC recording Panasonic is on the market as well? (The HMC150 in particular.)
  • Does this camera do true, 1080/60i without stretching or resampling or interpolating? How about 1080/24p and 1080/30p?
  • I plan on doing action/comedy cinema (think '24'/'Old School'), with the possibility of documentary/on-location work (think Food network sort of stuff) so I need something that can handle some low-light situations in restaurants and bars as well as outdoor natural light. Is a 1/3" CCD really enough for this purpose? Does the gain fail, or is it usable at +9?

My final question is regarding online delivery. For a 5-minute short, what kind of final project size should I be looking at? The deliverable QT file at the end at highest quality at 1080/30p and the same length shot at 720/30p HQ...rough estimates would be helpful in MB or GB. My next project will be about 25 minutes long.

How well does this crap transfer to DVD? Should I be considering an upgrade to Blu-ray for delivery?

I'm sorry for the TL;DR post but I am personally investing a lot of time and money into these projects and I expect a professional level of quality from the gear itself. Any high-quality clips or Vimeo links with comparisons are also welcome. I would love to see some non-wedding/non-music video/non-"test footage" stuff (am going through Vimeo as I wait :))

Any help is greatly appreciated! Cheers from Canada,

Kyle
 
As far as your camera choice, you would have to research each and find out which is best for you. Many members may tell you different things in regards to what works for them but that may not be right for you. The HVX is great for me and I do shorts, Feature length, music videos, Corporate and everything in between. The 200a is one hell of cam and you won't be disappointed with the purchase. But if you don't need tape I would get the HPX170. Both are pretty good in low light conditions as well.

Depending on how you compress the video, the quality could vary greatly. Compression is an artform within itself and you can get a very good look on a standard DVD. As far a Blu Ray, there has been much discussion on that here and I would search the boards to get info on that.
 
i have owned an hvx200 (original model) and now an hpx170 and they have both done a great job for me in various formats and genres. i do think that given your timing, you might simply continue to rent as needed and wait and see how the red scarlet thing pans out. will likley be another 12 months or so. but if this is a major purchase for you - might be worth the wait.

on the other hand, if you have PAYING jobs, waiting to be done. get what you like and get busy. pretty mcuh ANY of these cameras will pay for them selves in a few jobs.

personally, any camera with a rolling shutter is a non-starter for me. i like my flag poles straight as opposed to curved ; )
 
I have only had my 200A for just over a month and my first shoot with it paid for it, a Westcott lighting kit and a varizoom controller. You asked a lot of questions, but here are a couple answers from me.
The CCD's are true 16:9 imagers and all formats the camera shoots start at the full resolution and are downrezzed accordingly.
If you require an IRIS ring, there is a menu setup function that allows you to assign iris control to the zoom ring on the camera.
The 100Mbps HD mode actually records at that speed based on my evaluations (the file sizes become quite large.
I don't think you'll be disappointed with the camera based on what you are trying to shoot.
Original P2 cards "A" series were pretty pricey, newer "E" series list for $995 for 64GB, $450 for 32GB. A new US camera model HVX200a will come with a new "A" series 16GB card if you don't buy the import Japanese version (HVX205a).
Hope this helps....Good luck!
 
Here's my suggestion:
HPX 170

I've used a 200, 200a, and the XH-A1....while I thought the footage was pretty darned good with the XH-A1, I personally prefer the professional, robust DVCPRO standard......Everyone accepts DVCPRO. With the 170 or 200, if you ever need to supplement a production, you've got the DVCPRO....If you ever need to do a whole gig and need to deliver in an accepted format, you've got the DVCPRO(from start to finish).

With bluray tech you can totally skip the tape formats as well. When it comes to delivering the footage you just deliver it in a P2 structure on a bluray data disc.

The 170 is a hands down winner in my book, it has tons of cool features that the 200/200a lack like waveform, vectorscop, histogram, image filp, and HD-SDI.

You want good depth of field? slap a Redrock M2e onto the front of a 170, get yourself a couple good prime lenses(buy primarily older prime lenses....they don't make em like they used to, REALLY) and one good zoom, tell the 170 to flip the image, and you've got a Psuedo-35mm setup worthy of all the headaches, pains, and annoyances that come naturally when you ditch the huge DOF of video......but damn does it look good :)

Don't fret over what is true hd, a certain bit rate, etc.....these things will just give you headaches. You should look a LITTLE into this, just don't get to crazy. Just remember this : anything that uses a mini-dv system isn't top notch...something is happening along the way to get it to fit, be it extreme compression, lower bit rate, etc...it's something.....anything that is SD memory based, look at the details and make sure it isn't some consumer level compression or bit rates happening here....P2? don't even worry, cause it's a de-facto standard and we all can tesify that it's up to snuff.

Lack of iris ring? I never worry about it, and the few times I've needed to do a smooth adjustment, the dial has worked perfectly fine for me.

CCD Vs. CMOS? You stated you want to do some doc work and action/comedy...stick with CCD's. CMOS sensors tend to have some odd wobbling in the frame with alot of camera whips, and high speed actions...CMOS is great for talking heads, scenery, stuff with not alot of action, etc.

I myself do some Horror/Comedy from time to time, and I don't think I'd EVER want to try doing some of the crazy stuff that happens in those scenes with a CMOS. Perhaps with RED, but those guys spent some serious time trying to get their CMOS to NEVER have the wobbles...theres some serious tech. behind that imager.

HMC-150? It seems to have good tech behind, and great images, but personally I don't like any non-pro video standard, and this camera lacks the stuff that really makes the 200/170 shine, and that's the pro standard DVCPRO....it's a great cam for someone who's goals are to make great images for himself and his friends...but I'd never consider it for pro work.

"TRUE" 1080 Pro Camera? If your one concern is a true 1080 imager you have only a few choices: EX1, and all the CMOS troubles that come with it...RED which uses a CMOS, but doesn't seem to be affected by usual CMOS troubles, but it costs about $25,000 USD and many people have told me that it's very unsuited to Documentary work due to it's odd shape/size....and the HPX3000, which has a native 1080 CCD imager, but this baby comes in at a whopping $48,000 USD

Let's face it.....most people can't afford TRUE 1080 that fits all the requirements of a wide range of Cinematography: Portability, Functionality, Professional Standards, and Adaptability.

We must compromise and find a lower cost(Bah!) product that fits what we will be doing.....for me it's the 200, 200a, and 170. These camera's have the high quality video, the ability to adapt to almost any situation, they have the Pro standards, They can be used and carried pretty much anywhere, and they have all the right buttons, switches, rings, and adjustments to allow me to do all sorts of stuff....my only complaint with it would perhaps be the lack of native modes in 1080 and especially 480, which in the latter I'd love to be able to crank the FPS up to 100 plus....but I'm reaching here, lol.
 
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Hi Kyle,

Another Canuk here! After debating the merits of the HPX170 vs HMC150 for the past month ( and testing out both cameras over a weekend ) I bought a HMC150 last week. I went with the HMC150 mainly because of the large cost difference. The HMC150 is overpriced in Canada ( $5000 Can ), so I bought mine from B&H Photo in New York ( $3400 US ) and had it shipped to Toronto in 2 days via UPS. The cost with shipping and dollar exchange was a little under $4,100 Can. ( there is very little price difference between buying the HPX170 in the US, and buying it in Canada )

I also bought 8 x 16GB SDHC cards for $400 Can ( and a Pelican SDHC case to hold them ) so I can shoot all day. ( 12 hours at maximum bitrate ) If I had gone with a HPX170, then buying the equivalent shooting time in P2 cards would cost more than buying another camera.

For myself, the main benefit of going with the HPX170 would have been the 4:2:2 colour space, but I can live with 4:2:0 for now.

If you can afford it, I would buy the HPX170, but if your budget is more constrained like mine, then the HMC150 is a great second choice.
 
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100mb/s is in P mode....becasuse it duplicates and triplicates the frames to fit it into a 60pstream.

PN mode i think is something around 37mb/s in 24PN
 
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