HVX200 - Why not HDV recording too?

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ericyoung

Well-known member
Had a quick search, but didn't find this exact question so...

Why can't Panasonic make the HVX200 HDV capable as well as DV compatible. That would address the few concerns of the P2 workflow ie.

1) An immediately affordable (compromise) upgrade path, with ability to go P2 as prices allow
2) Cheap archiving for current projects, shooting HDV, again until DVCProHD archiving is truly as cheap and convenient as DV is now
3) A choice between using bulky/cumbersome but cheaper than P2 external recording solutions, or compromised quality but great convenience and portability when we need or want it, and also DV when we want it.

Well, could go on, but you get the idea. Yes, HDV is a heavily compromised format, but anecdotal evidence so far seems to show that it is a very useable tool in the right circumstances. It would REALLY make choosing the Panny a complete no brainer.

The tape mechanism can't be much different as the Z1 will record HDV to DV tapes. So the limit would be the cost of the electronics.

Would love it if Jan could comment...:grin:
 
ericyoung said:
Why can't Panasonic make the HVX200 HDV capable as well as DV compatible?That would address the few concerns of the P2 workflow ie.
Click to expand...

Hi Eric,

I have had this discussion with people off line and the answer is real simple. Let's say we did that and some one sees the work you have done on HDV and wonders privately "why the weird artifacts?" but rather because he is unfamiliar with the format war, just asks the innocent question, " what camera was that shot with?" You say the HVX200. Because they are not familiar with the fact that it does HDV and DVCPRO HD(a world of difference apart.) That person leaves and vows to tell the first of their cronies about the odd footage they saw shot with the HVX200. So then those friends go on to repeat the story of the footage with weird artifacts and then it gets posted on the internet and somehow with the way things work, an image gets posted and pretty soon, the HVX has the reputation that is undeserved, if it was only DVCPRO HD, which is what it is, at least in the HD domain. And there is no way you can persuade me to think that this would not happen. If we cannot get the 24P thing right after 2 and 1/2 years, there is no way that this could be pulled off.

If we thought HDV was a professional format we would have made a professional camera around it. There are way too many compromises.

>2) Cheap archiving for current projects, shooting HDV, again until DVCProHD archiving is truly as cheap and convenient as DV is now
Click to expand...

An archive should be a saving of the original footage in such a way that there is no degradation to the footage, no compromises, just in case you want to sell the footage to a "stock yard." MPEG2 artifacts are just that and have no place in an archive, IMHO.

Hope that helps,

Jan
 
Jan has explained in many posts already why Panasonic decided to go with DVCPro HD over HDV. I for one am glad they are going with PVCPro. There's enough players in the HDV arena if you want to go that route. The HVX200 offers more benefits at an affordable price (yes I know many think it's expensive but I've worked long enough in this industry to see that this is camera is a steal)
 
ericyoung said:
Had a quick search, but didn't find this exact question so...

Why can't Panasonic make the HVX200 HDV capable as well as DV compatible. That would address the few concerns of the P2 workflow ie.
Click to expand...
They can't because they are not licensed to produce HDV equipment. They don't care about HDV because they have DVCPROHD. Effectively, they are choosing to ignore the consumer HD market and focus on pro HD solutions. You can always buy two cameras - the HVX-200 and an HDV model. Panasonic will still love you if you do that. :)
 
Ill probably end up buying both eventually.. HDV and DVCPROHD that is.

Especially if the HVX200 can give me shallow depth of field look by offering mult lenses (telephoto lenses)

The DOF stuff is what really seperates the pro stuff from the prosumer. IMHO
 
Thanks for the quick reply Jan. And yes, I DO see and understand your point, even though I personally wouldn't have been confused. Doesn't the inclusion of DV recording potentially also compromise the "professional" tag though?

However, I'm glad you were able to confirm Panasonic did at least consider it before rejecting it.

Bgundu - I too am glad that they went for DVCProHD. I wasn't questioning its benefits.

But using my Canon 10D digital SLR as an analogy, I, as the user, have the choice of shooting fewer high resolution uncompressed RAW stills for say blowing up to A3 photographic prints, or shooting loads of heavily compressed jpegs for low res web use, or a good range of quality between the two. Sometimes shooting RAW is not required for the desired end product. But I have all those options in one camera.

And going back to lower quality "non-professional" DV, when shooting undercover, run and gun, or doing a video diary, it was often the format of choice by professionals. So all I'm saying is that it's good to have more options in one camera. I will almost certainly buy the superior quality one, but can forsee in some circumstances having to hire an HDV format camera which could have been included relatively easily (or maybe not, if Panasonic needed to develop their own HDV electronics from scratch).

I'm still looking forward to the HVX!
 
I am a beta tester for the new Guerilla 35 lens adapter. This is a bayonet mount (at least the final product will be) solution that lets you use all kinds of still and motion picture lenses on the Panasonic DVX-100A (so far). The developers know of the HVX-200 and I am sure that they will have plans on adapting this unit for this new camera.

The G35 allows for extremely shallow depth of field and very high quality images, I am very excited by the creative possibilities that it allows and I am looking forward to completing the historical documentary I am working on with it presently.

Guerilla 35 has just posted some stills I sent them http://www.guerilla35.com/newdemo.html of a tabletop shoot I did with the G35 lens adapter, various Nikon D series still lenses and a jib arm last week, I will be sending them some example QTs soon. This adapter teamed with the HVX-200 is a VERY exciting thought. The HVX-200 will not have removable lenses so this is the closest we will be able to get to obtaining really shallow depth of field and it's not a bad compromise at all. They are also working on making the front of the adapter interchangeable with Nikon F-Mount, PL, B4 and others so it will be possible to use a real 35mm motion picture lens with real follow focus controls, etc. It's a GREAT product and no, they aren't giving me one or paying me to say that, I am just testing their unit and giving them feedback. The encouraging thing is that they are already addressing many of the challenges with using the product that I have brought up to them in the final retail version of the adapter. This product will give you essentially much of the same end result as the $7,000.00 P+S Technik adapter at a small fraction of the price. The ability to also use your still Nikon F-Mount series lenses BUT to also be able to step up to renting higher end PL mount lenses and accesories is very exciting as well.

Definitely check out the product and e-mail them or post on their discussion board with what you are concerned about with their product and what you want the final product to feature, they are a small and responsive company and are really interested in providing what we as filmmakers need to accomplish a very high-end looking result for a relative pittance.

Best,

Dan
 
Despite Jan's answer, I think the most realistic answer is that HDV is not an included output format on the HVX because Panasonic did not sign in on HDV, but decided to further develop their own "competitive" format (of course, Jan will tell you, there's no comptetition ;) ).

In order to incorporate HDV on the camera, Panasonic would have to pay signficant licensing fees and R&D that would cut into their profits. As it stands, the camera is equipped with proprietary Panasonic formats - which I would assume cost them little in addition to the R&D costs they've already forked over to develop the technology in the first place.

If HDV was included on the cam, I bet Panasonic would by hyping it as an "additional feature". It would sure be risky though - especially if HDV inclusion prevented P2 sales with people accepting HDV as a "reasonable low cost" alternative.

As it stands, it's a lot cheaper for Panasonic to point out all the inherent flaws of HDV in comparison with DVCPRO-HD (since words cost nothing). They are placing their bets that DVCPRO-HD will win out.
 
Breakdown the costs of the G35....

And, how does it compare to the micro35 in terms of the quality of the dof effect.

I really like the effect it gave 100a on the demo, especially for streamed compressed footage.
 
ericyoung said:
Doesn't the inclusion of DV recording potentially also compromise the "professional" tag though?
Click to expand...

Not at all. It doesn't look like HD. The inclusion of the deck is there for the benefit of the new owner. Just because you have an HD camera, doesn't mean that you have HD customers. It helps you transition yourself and your customers to HD.

And for those folks that say we would have except we would have had to pay a license fee. If we felt that it was what the customers really wanted and needed to do produce high quality HD shows, we would have done that.

Best,

Jan
 
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