HVX200 vs XL-H1 Highlight Blowout Post Repair Analysis

H

holyzoo

Well-known member
I have been on the fence between the XL-H1 and HVX200, so I decided to revisit my highlight blow out tests. I am still amazed that the HVX200 with DVCPRO HD has highlight detail beneath apparently blown out highlights, while the XL-H1 just simply does not. Once that blow out is on HDV, it appears to be really in there.

Below are comparisons between HVX200 and XL-H1 source footage brightness reduction using FCP color correction (whites).

HVX200 Examples
Example 1 - Before and After
Example 2 - Before and After
Example 3 (My favorite) - Before and After

XL-H1 Examples
Example 1 - Before and After
Example 2 - Before and After
Example 3 - Before and After

-steev
 
Nevermind. LoL

Honestly... I don't really see anything horrible about either set of pictures.

But thanks for the comparison. Helps me to see different shiet for both cams.

I actually don't mind the look of either set.

I need to see motion after compression in real world situations. I liked the 24f Sundance footage, and the HVX short film motion as well. Either way, good post, Zoo.
 
Wow, that's amazing. Did you just reduce contrast in the HVX footage or what were your actual steps? I like the correction on all of the HVX post clips about 100x better.

And you're right; the XL H1 footage just gets dim and milky, whereas the HVX really retains the detail. I'm extremely impressed.
 
Haakon said:
Wow, that's amazing.
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That's what I'm sayin!! :D

Haakon said:
Did you just reduce contrast in the HVX footage or what were your actual steps? I like the correction on all of the HVX post clips about 100x better.
Click to expand...

That's using the 3-way color correction filter in Final Cut Pro and just reducing the "Highlight" level a bit.

Haakon said:
And you're right; the XL H1 footage just gets dim and milky, whereas the HVX really retains the detail. I'm extremely impressed.
Click to expand...

Indeed.

I did another test which is not perfect but still proved something important. I took a frame from raw HVX200 footage, recompressed it both to DVCPRO HD and to HDV. Then I brought those clips back into FCP to see how the CC brightness tweaking would behave. My theory was that the HVX footage encoded to Mpeg2 will lose the ability to handle highlights the way DVCPRO HD does.

And this test is showing exactly that.

http://www.holyzoo.com/content/hvx200/blowout/CC_Difference_DVCPROHD_vs_HDV.mov

Use your arrow keys to toggle back and forth to check out the differences.
 
I'm seriously in awe over these tests... we've been told a million times that the GOP nature of HDV is completely inferior for handling motion and that the low bitrate makes keying terrible, but none of the footage I've seen from any of the HDV cameras has really made a strong case for the weakness of HDV in my opinion - at least the way Panasonic propaganda has lead people to believe that it completely cripples your footage. This highlight handling test, however, shows HUGE differences between the codecs and is the first up-front example I've seen that truly shows one real inferiority of HDV compared to DVCPROHD. I feel much more confident about recommending it as the better HD solution with these kinds of results.
 
In the video version of the test, they only difference I notice is a change in color and a shift of everything that is semi-blurred (such as the fast movement of the cars) to the right..

HDV's color seems off quite a bit, but in the highlight dept. no difference, atleast in the video example.

Or is that clip meant for tweaking in an NLE in order to see these results you speak of?
 
Mr. Blonde said:
In the video version of the test, they only difference I notice is a change in color and a shift of everything that is semi-blurred (such as the fast movement of the cars) to the right..

HDV's color seems off quite a bit, but in the highlight dept. no difference, atleast in the video example.
Click to expand...

I disagree. I think there is much more going on here. Look at every single spot where the image is up towards the limit of brightness and compare it to the frame that has the brightnes reduced. The difference in the way DVCPRO HD handles it compared to HDV is significant. Perhaps not tremendously, perhaps not something that could break some people's faith, but there is a difference. Namely in the loss of detail that you can't get back once you've blown out a shot on HDV.

Mr. Blonde said:
Or is that clip meant for tweaking in an NLE in order to see these results you speak of?
Click to expand...

Nope, the clip is just for viewing analysis.

Here's a another example:

http://www.holyzoo.com/content/hvx200/blowout/Highlight_Reduction_Example.jpg

Again, is it a radical difference? No. It's a subtle difference and with as much brutally critical discourse we see here day in and day out, I'd say this is a community of people highly sensitive to technical subtleties. So that's why I'm sharing what I discovered, because I really need to make a decision between the XL-H1 and HVX, and GOD! this is tough!

Wooo HOOO!!! I still don't absolutely know!!! Hahahaha. But I'm thinkin it's the HVX. ;)
 
For me the difference is so subtle that it would in no way affect my buying decision. Ideally, you would want to capture simultaneously to HDV and DVCPROHD from the same camera head in order to make the test meaningful.
 
Mr. Blonde said:
In the video version of the test, they only difference I notice is a change in color and a shift of everything that is semi-blurred (such as the fast movement of the cars) to the right..

HDV's color seems off quite a bit, but in the highlight dept. no difference, atleast in the video example.

Or is that clip meant for tweaking in an NLE in order to see these results you speak of?
Click to expand...

Look at the white van, and the rear end of the silver car...
 
Always nice to see more tests. Thanks for taking the time to post them. However, this is really a Canon vs Panasonic test as the codes are not isolated. As "mmm" said, you need to record to HDV and DVCPRO HD from the same camera at the same time to have abetter codec face off.
 
FullRez said:
Always nice to see more tests. Thanks for taking the time to post them. However, this is really a Canon vs Panasonic test as the codes are not isolated. As "mmm" said, you need to record to HDV and DVCPRO HD from the same camera at the same time to have abetter codec face off.
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Yes, agreed. This isn't a professional codec face off. It's my observations on real world testing with actual raw footage from both cameras.
 
Agree,

Interesting...really.

The details in the extreme highlights is much more visible with the HVX footage once you bring the level down to 100 ire.

But we cannot conclude it is from the codec though...
It may be the HVX camera section that handles the highlights better than the H1...
 
You are not comparing apples to apples... the XLH grabs you have do not have the knee set to low and have the setup level and master pedestal flat and not adjusted properly. You see the same thing with XL2 footage. Actually, you see the same with an F900, pretty flat and milky out of the box because the factory default is to get the most rez and detail.



ash =o)
 
This may be a bit off-topic but since I sold my XL2 for the HVX200 I have borrowed my buddy's DVX100 several times and find it blows out so easily! Is this because the knee cannot be adjusted on the original DVX? As Ash eluded to I always had my knee (on XL2) set to retain as much highlight info as possible. Now I really notice how much harder it is to shoot without a lowered knee on this particular DVX.

Anyone concur with this?
 
Well folks, I hate to waste everyone's time with Codec latitude speculation, but I believe true scientists will admit when their findings swing away.

I tried bringing an image from a 12MP in RAW format, downres'd in FCP then exported both to HDV and DVCPRO HD. Then I applied the same CC test, and I don't see a bit of difference!! Wow. Okay, so well, hmm, I don't know! I still assert you get more oomph out of the latitude of the HVX.

However, here's the good news. My decision has been baked, formalized, and completed. Because.... I called BHphoto to cancel my preorder from Oct 22nd, and they said the system shows that 1 out of 9 they just received is coming my way!

WOOOOOO F**N HOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! Two 8GB Package. If this aint true, I'm gonna go so postal.
 
Yes!
Congrats Holyzoo !

I'm glad you're getting yours. I know you will let us know what you think and hopefully share some frame grabs and raw mxf files :)

Steve
 
Stevet said:
Yes!
Congrats Holyzoo !I'm glad you're getting yours. I know you will let us know what you think and hopefully share some frame grabs and raw mxf files :)
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I'll be posting a ton of examples and tests. As for raw files, I'll have to double check on bandwidth ramifications, but I can probably guarantee a few. I'll wait until I have something mind blowing to show for raw file download, or I don't think it's quite worth yet another disappointment here. :)

But after all this anticipation, I expect that most of what I post will get blasted to some degree. "Awesome footage! But I can see chromatic abberation and noise, and artifacts, and the resolution isn't too great, and it doesn't look like the CineAlta or Varicam or Dalsa or Genesis." :P After all we want the world, but can't afford it. But this will have to do for now. I'll post some than perhaps disappear to avoid all the negativity and raining on my parade. :D
 
Thanks, Believe me, if I had mine, I'd do the same !

I feel eveyones pain here waiting for this camera.

think frame grabs are definately helpful. The raw MXF files only have to be 5 seconds or so.

Thanks holyzoo
Stevet
 
AshG said:
You are not comparing apples to apples... the XLH grabs you have do not have the knee set to low and have the setup level and master pedestal flat and not adjusted properly. You see the same thing with XL2 footage. Actually, you see the same with an F900, pretty flat and milky out of the box because the factory default is to get the most rez and detail.



ash =o)
Click to expand...


Better listen to Ash. People keep comparing the footage from the H1 to the HVX, and as it's been stated many times before... it's not the best that can come from that camera.

But, it's good to know that holyzoo agrees that there's not much difference between the codecs.

Should make things a bit more interesting if we come to find out that they aren't much different with these two cameras.
 
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