HVX200 RESOLUTION TESTS ON- 720P vs 1080P/24 FRAME

[Haakon]

yeah, i know... but my question is WHY???

It's a good question, and I can see why people are confused about it. The reason that you can't record variable framerates is not because of the size. It has to do with the fact that there is no provision in DVCPROHD for progressive shooting at the 1080 resolution. It's 1080i or 720p only. The way they're getting 1080p (24 or 30 only) out of the camera is by using the nifty pulldown trick that they implemented in the DVX years ago as a way to get around the fact that NTSC is interlaced-only as well. It works very well and is why the DVX has been such a hit.

Unfortunately, in order to record variable framerates, you need true progressive capture so that each individual frame can stand on its own. By shooting, say, 36 individual frames and playing them back on a 24pN timeline, you're getting true, progressive scan, frame independent, overcrank motion. You can't record 36 individual frames in a 1080i stream. It's just like playing back your 60i DV footage in "slow motion" on your NLE. It's possible to make the frames last longer than they were recorded, but in order to do that, you've got to sample and interpolate and mix fields and all of that nasty stuff that makes "fake" slow motion look so "fake." Because the 720 system is entirely progressive, they are able to isolate the individual frames and play them back at true variable speeds.

The camera is actually scanning at 1080p the whole time, so it's my guess that they could have easily made this a true 1080p camera with variable framerates as far as the hardware is concerned, but unfortunately since there is no provision for 1080p in DVCPROHD, it would mean creating either an exception for the codec or writing a new codec entirely. Either way, it would make it incompatiable with the existing DVCPROHD hardware out there, and they would never take that route. Already people are complaining about how incompatible "HDV" is from camera to camera; Panasonic had to ensure that the HVX was capable with all of the current DVCPROHD decks and NLEs that use the format.

 

[Fernando Kurezyn Jr.]

It's a good question, and I can see why people are confused about it. The reason that you can't record variable framerates is not because of the size. It has to do with the fact that there is no provision in DVCPROHD for progressive shooting at the 1080 resolution. It's 1080i or 720p only. The way they're getting 1080p (24 or 30 only) out of the camera is by using the nifty pulldown trick that they implemented in the DVX years ago as a way to get around the fact that NTSC is interlaced-only as well. It works very well and is why the DVX has been such a hit.

Unfortunately, in order to record variable framerates, you need true progressive capture so that each individual frame can stand on its own. By shooting, say, 36 individual frames and playing them back on a 24pN timeline, you're getting true, progressive scan, frame independent, overcrank motion. You can't record 36 individual frames in a 1080i stream. It's just like playing back your 60i DV footage in "slow motion" on your NLE. It's possible to make the frames last longer than they were recorded, but in order to do that, you've got to sample and interpolate and mix fields and all of that nasty stuff that makes "fake" slow motion look so "fake." Because the 720 system is entirely progressive, they are able to isolate the individual frames and play them back at true variable speeds.

The camera is actually scanning at 1080p the whole time, so it's my guess that they could have easily made this a true 1080p camera with variable framerates as far as the hardware is concerned, but unfortunately since there is no provision for 1080p in DVCPROHD, it would mean creating either an exception for the codec or writing a new codec entirely. Either way, it would make it incompatiable with the existing DVCPROHD hardware out there, and they would never take that route. Already people are complaining about how incompatible "HDV" is from camera to camera; Panasonic had to ensure that the HVX was capable with all of the current DVCPROHD decks and NLEs that use the format.

Haakon... WOW!!!... thats an explanation!!!.. thank you very much...

i only have a doubt about this 1080p option in the HVX, you wrote:

The way they're getting 1080p (24 or 30 only) out of the camera is by using the nifty pulldown trick that they implemented in the DVX years ago as a way to get around the fact that NTSC is interlaced-only as well. It works very well and is why the DVX has been such a hit.

that means that you can record at 1080P on HVX as well?... (i know, with this limitation about 24p and 30p only, but its possible to record at 1080P rigth?)

Then you mix your footage (slow motion with 720p and all the other scenes with
1080p) rigth?..

Thanks dude

 

[Fernando Kurezyn Jr.]

JRV... amigo.. thanks...

Your explanation is really acurate and very good, i think meny other guys here
(novels) will take advange of your post... really.. i got alot of thing now that
i just could´nt get before... thanks dude!

Yours and Haaken explanation was OUTSTANDING!!

Thanks guys.

Any thing i can do for you guys.. just tellme.

Fernando

Well, the difference is SIZE. 1080p records an image that is bigger than 720p. 720p is bigger than 480p. All of them can look cinematic, but if all else is equal, the 1080p footage shows more detail than the other two resolutions when shown on a big screen TV or movie theater.

The DVX100 records in 480p, and looks very cinematic, very "movie-like", but when you see it on a big-screen HDTV set or in a movie theater, it looks soft. Much softer than 35mm film. Like all SD, it's meant to be seen in regular, small TVs. 720p is much bigger, and would look great (very sharp and detailed, not blurry or soft) on a big HDTV with a 720p resolution. Now there are some huge HDTVs that have a 1080p resolution, and you can watch 720p on them, but 1080p footage would look even better. 1080p is the biggest of the HD standards. 720p doesn't show as much detail.

Star Wars II and III were shot in 1080p with Sony CineAlta cameras. So was Once Upon a Time in Mexico, and Sin City. All were in 1080p. The new Genesis camera, which they are using for Superman now, is 1080p. So is the ARRI D20, the Viper, and the Dalsa Origin.

1080p shows more detail than 720p, which makes it better for film transfer. 720p is certainly better than 480 SD, but 1080p is the most detail that can be recorded in HD. The more detail, the better.

Why are there two different HD standards? Great question. The answer is the same for "why are there DVD-R and DVD+R disks?" You can use either 720p or 1080p to shoot a movie, and both can look very film-like. But given the choice, if you want to show your work on a really big HDTV screen or transfer to film for 35mm movie theater projection, then 1080p should look better.

 

[ullanta]

Well, Fernando, looks like most of your question has been answered? I just want to add two things:

1) Until now, no consumer TVs have been capable of true 1080p display. For a few years, I'd guess most will not... so for most cases in TV production, 720p theoretically gives at least as good a result, with lower compression so it could be arguably even better. It also places lower demands on production equipment. So, as a TEMPORARY measure until other technologies catch up, 720p is (has been?) beneficial.

2) The rest of a camera system (lens, CCDs, etc) may not be good enough for there to be a big difference between 720 and 1080. A good HD lens is probably the most expensive part of any HD camera, and probably one of the weakest points in the process... so while the camera may be technically capable of capturing a 1080p image, and 1080i may be important for compatibility and marketing, 720 may be more efficient with little perceived quality difference.

3) (extra!) The compatibility issue is a big one. If you think about how "over 60p" works vs. how "over 60i" works, it looks extremely difficult or impossible to get variable framerates from "over 60i". The pulldown combinations would be a nightmare!

So combining these (especially 2 & 3), I think it's pretty clear why the HVX would have both formats, especially at its price point. But that's just my opinion... we won't know for sure until we see results of the various tests described in this forum, and until we all have cameras in our hands!

 

[BobDiaz]

...,sorry about my english guys, i do my best.

thanks anyway

Fernando

Feranado,

No hay problema, porque yo NO puedo hablar espanol muy buen.
(No problem, because I can't speak Spanish very well.)

Don't feel bad about problems with English, but if you ever need a laugh, you should hear my Spanish. So, why would I want to gripe about someone's English, when I can't speak another language very well?

Sincerely,

Bob Diaz

 

[ullanta]

Don't feel bad about problems with English, but if you ever need a laugh, you should hear my Spanish. So, why would I want to gripe about someone's English, when I can't speak another language very well?

Bien dicho! Perdoname mi "castimalo"! Todos hablan lo que pueden, todos intentan de entender. Qheshwa parlaq kayman jamuspa, tukuy kusikunancheqman a!

 

[Haakon]

that means that you can record at 1080P on HVX as well?... (i know, with this limitation about 24p and 30p only, but its possible to record at 1080P rigth?)

Then you mix your footage (slow motion with 720p and all the other scenes with
1080p) rigth?..

Yes, 1080p is possible with the HVX, but like you said, only 24p and 30p. And you're actually laying down 60i to the card, but the pulldown is in place so that Final Cut Pro (or whatever you're using) can remove it and give you the accurate progressive frames.

You can certainly mix 720p/variable framerates with your 1080 footage in your edit timeline, but whether or not the resolution difference will be great enough to be noticeable remains to be seen (if you output your whole project to 1080). Generally speaking, a higher-res image that has been downsampled tends to look better than its lower-resolution counterpart (for instance, an 8MP image from your digital camera "shrunk" to 2MP usually looks a lot better than an image taken from a native 2MP camera), so perhaps you'll always want to shoot in 1080 and make 720 projects if you're using the variable frame rates. Of course, your recording times are a lot less in 1080 than 720, so it just depends on what your needs are and how important squeezing that extra bit of resolution is to you in your final project.

 

[toke lahti]

Has anybody watched 1080p footage on 1080i crt monitor?
Does the crt show any interlace flicker?
I'm just thinking if the 1080p recorded in 1080i have anykind of low pass filtering to reduce interlace flicker with 1080i displays.
AFAIK there's no "vertical detail" setting in 1080p mode.
If there is a low pass filtering, then 1080p has same vertical resolution than 1080i, which is about same than 720p and in this case there's no idea using 100Mbps 1080 mode with p2 or cineporter.

 

[Fernando Kurezyn Jr.]

hahaha.... Ullanta.. your spanish dude!!.. thanks alot for your adds,
are you talking about HD PLASMA Displays? i´ve seen some of them at
internet that specifies 1080p.. http://www.hometheaterstore.com/
by the other hand allmust all of them specifies no more than 1366 x 768 pixels...
thats what you ment about?..

Haaken..

Thanks dude, and other question... That pulldown 3:2 in FCP coming from 60i
is not the same fake effect that Sony FX1 does?? with that horrible 24 CineLook
thing?? What about that FLICKS (flicks is correct?) that FX1 has when you watch
your footage at TV?... is not the same thing??

What kind of PLASMA display or LCD is accurate to playback your BEST recording
footage from your HVX?.. (recording at 720p or 1080p -aftet FCP process-)

I have these questions because my next proyect is about recording an HD documentary (i think it will be with HVX) and we will display it in a teather using PLASMA Displays and HD Proyector (we will combine 2 plasma displays with the HD proyector, and wewill playback 3 difrent surces at the same time, making this kind of multi-image video show) So is important to me to be sure first: what kind of format i must use (720p or 1080p) Seccond: What kind of Displays (specifications) i must use to playback my final edition propery (i don´t know the speeling, but you know.. MEANS playback JUST OK)

Bob...

Your spanish is very well.. and thanks for your comments amigo, i´m not feel bad
about it, some times i´m just worried about no body understand what i say.. lol

Y considerando que el mercado latino es cada vez mas grande yo invitaria a todos los
usuarios de DVXUSER.COM a aprender un poco de castellano (no castemalo Ullanta haha) para ser mas competitivos en este negocio y ademas abrir mas sus horizontes con respecto a la creatividad y la diversidad cultural que esto implica.
(you would translate this at babelfish.altavista.com if you want)

The AMIGO from DVXUsers...

Fernando

Thanks

 

[Haakon]

Thanks dude, and other question... That pulldown 3:2 in FCP coming from 60i is not the same fake effect that Sony FX1 does?? with that horrible 24 CineLook thing?? What about that FLICKS (flicks is correct?) that FX1 has when you watch your footage at TV?... is not the same thing??

No, the HVX offers 24p and 24pA modes in 1080i just like the DVX does with SD footage. It's true 24p, pulled down from the 60i stream.

 

[Fernando Kurezyn Jr.]

No, the HVX offers 24p and 24pA modes in 1080i just like the DVX does with SD footage. It's true 24p, pulled down from the 60i stream.

ok dude, the thing is.. i did n´t know about DVX pulldown ether.. hahaha
yeah, i´m kind of lost... i know.. but trustme, i´m like 10 steps forward to my
competition here in Mexico... so... imagine how lost are all of them.. lol

so, pulldown is not like faking something.. rigth?..

for my culture.. dude.. what in the hell means PULLDOWN??? hahaha

sorry dude!!

Askme about latin sweethearts haha.. or something.. i can help...
Audio??? maybe in audio.. i have a music studio... any question?? lol

i feel bad!!! sorry

Fernando

 

[Stevet]

Fernando please check out this site for info:
http://adamwilt.com/24p/

 

[Emanuel]

for my culture.. dude.. what in the hell means PULLDOWN??? hahaha

sorry dude!!

Fernando, cuidado con las palabras ( . )_( . ) la ejecución no es aqui... :grin: ...nosotros hablamos PAL

 

[ullanta]

hahaha.... Ullanta.. your spanish dude!!.. thanks alot for your adds,
are you talking about HD PLASMA Displays? i´ve seen some of them at
internet that specifies 1080p.. http://www.hometheaterstore.com/
by the other hand allmust all of them specifies no more than 1366 x 768 pixels...
thats what you ment about?..

Castimalo andino y quechua pues...

Yes, exactly... most "1080p" or "1080i" TVs can handle a 1080 signal, but have a much lower display resolution (like 1366x768).

 

[FatBird19]

I was doing some internal testing for evaluation on the HVX200 and thought I would post one of the blow up frames that was an analysis on 720p vs 1080p taken from
material Kaku posted. I wanted to see if there was an increase in resolving power
when going to 1080p mode.

Link to blow up test: http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but does anyone see any edge-enhancement against the black text on the green overpass?

 

[Fernando Kurezyn Jr.]

Castimalo andino y quechua pues...

Yes, exactly... most "1080p" or "1080i" TVs can handle a 1080 signal, but have a much lower display resolution (like 1366x768).

jajaja... che, sos chileno o boliviano entonces??

ok, i got that point about TV 1080, what brand or model would you recomend
to playback HD footage? (HVX) (i need a cuple of 60 or 70 inches displays)
(my recorded footage is at 24p)

Then what kind of VCR or some kind of player can i use to playback my final edition?

thanks dude

 

[Fernando Kurezyn Jr.]

Fernando, cuidado con las palabras ( . )_( . ) la ejecución no es aqui... :grin: ...nosotros hablamos PAL

haha.. ok dude.. i´ll be carefully...

but you know.. in Mexico we speak NTSC.. not PAL...
i know about PAL because in South America they speak PAL
and i was working in Paraguay last summer... but Mexico runs NTSC

 

[Fernando Kurezyn Jr.]

Fernando please check out this site for info:
http://adamwilt.com/24p/

Stevet... thank amigo, i´ll check it rigth now..

thanks again

Fernando:thumbsup: