HVX200/HPX170 VS the world

cbox121

cbox121

Member
Hello everyone,

I am in the process of purchasing a camera. I just graduated from the Art Institute and I am extremely familiar with using the HVX200 and the HPX170. However, now that it is time for me to buy my own equipment I am faced with lots of different options. I am hoping that some of you could help me decide which camera to get.

First, what is the difference between using P2 and SD cards? I have noticed a HUGE price difference, and I want to know if my footage will suffer.

Features I am looking for in my ideal camera are:
manual focus, iris, and zoom
decent sized LCD screen
XLR inputs, preferably 2
ND filters
and finally the ability to transfer the footage to Final Cut Pro quickly and efficiently. I have heard of ridiculous transfer times from some cameras. importing from one format to another just to get footage into FCP.

my price range is up to about $3500, though I would like to be in the $2500 range
 
well id suggest the hpx since its improved version of the hvx.
i saw one on craigslist for $2500 yesterday

goodluck
 
cbox121 said:
the ability to transfer the footage to Final Cut Pro quickly and efficiently.
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That's more of a FCP issue than a camera issue. FCP just isn't up to the times with modern footage.

I can highly recommend the Adobe CS5 suite, which can handle pretty much any camera footage natively. No conversion, no plug-ins. And with the right hardware, can handle many effects in real time with it's GPU accelerated Mercury Playback Engine.

"At the crux of the compelling features is not only that Premiere CS5 can natively edit long-GOP H.264 (i.e. raw footage from Canon 5D MKII, Canon 7D, and recent Kodak & Sanyo cameras) with real time transitions, and that of AVCHD camcorders —which also use the long-GOP H.264 códec (including very recent professional models from both Panasonic and Sony). I say “not only” because even Premiere CS4 has been able to do that. The big difference is that Premiere CS5 can do it easily and gracefully… even with several layers. especially (but not exclusively) when it has a supported GPU. As you can tell, for someone who would like to edit that raw footage natively and in real time, Adobe’s Mercury technology is potentially kryptonite for Apple’s continuing sales of Final Cut Studio
 
I would say in your price range, the HPX170 is perfect. I would sell you mine but it will be my main camera for at least another year.

I do fine in FCP.

P2 cards are kind of a PITA. the price is too high and they fill up fast, so you always have to have a way to dump to a laptop or drive. The same as any digital setup I guess, p2 cards just cost so much.

In other setups, SD cards are relatively cheaper, but if you are buying good, fast cards, they are still quite expensive.
 
FCP just isn't up to the times with modern footage
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id call horsecrap on that. from what i read here on the forum fcp is as (or more) "modern footage" friendly as any other NLE.

what is the difference between using P2 and SD cards
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if youre using an hvx/hpx its a non issue. NEITHER of them shoots footage to sd cards. they just use sd cards for firmware updates and scene file data.
if you want a panasonic camera that shoots to sd card. you'll need the hmc150

and no. P2 vs SD. they are both just storage mechanisms. neither has anything directly to do with footage quality

the ability to transfer the footage to Final Cut Pro quickly and efficiently
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this really has nothing to do with camera choice. and its not advisable to go directly from your cards (sd or P2) or your camera directly into FCP. you should copy your footage to your drive first, THEN do your log and transfer / import step

I have heard of ridiculous transfer times from some cameras. importing from one format to another just to get footage into FCP.
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i have encountered that three or four times in about 4 years. it seems to be a random mac firewire/usb issue, rather than one of camera, or footage

P2 cards are kind of a PITA. the price is too high and they fill up fast, so you always have to have a way to dump to a laptop or drive. The same as any digital setup I guess, p2 cards just cost so much.
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this is the oldest and most wildly misinterpretable complaint about the whole P2 thing.

YES! P2 isnt for everyone. but it wasnt intended to be.

if youre a once a month $500 wedding shooter. or the one-man crew who shoots full length highschool football games. P2 aint for you.
if you shoot video on at least a weekly basis. and do industrials, feature/indie, music videos, commercials, etc. and for anywhere near professional fees. the time that you save from NOT having to capture tape will pay for the cost of a couple P2 cards in about a week.

and ive been a mac/fcp/P2 user for nearly 4 years and there is NOTHING "PITA" about it. it has been the most intuitive, logical and trouble-free format ive ever used.
 
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wgzn said:
id call horsecrap on that. from what i read here on the forum fcp is as (or more) "modern footage" friendly as any other NLE.
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Not as long as they are the only remaining NLE that doesn't edit the footage natively they aren't.
 
If you are getting into editing on P2 - you must get
Raylight for MAC.
I don't work for these guys I just use the software.
What is does is write a small proxy file and then you
bring those into FCP and start editing without the
Log & Transfer process.
It can write a 16 gig P2 card in about 10 sec.
If shooting 720 24PN a 16 gig P2 card will hold 42 minutes.
DOing a L & T on 42 minutes if you used every clip would take
about 20-30 min??? Depending on your drive speed?
And then you would have twice as much footage on your hard drive.

You transfer your entire P2 comtents to another drive
and go from there.
http://dvfilm.com/raylight/mac/index.htm
 
And then you would have twice as much footage on your hard drive.
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CORRECT! and youd also have a BACKUP of the card in its original format in the event you need to revisit it or move to another NLE or platform...
call me crazy but i consider drive space cheaper than a reshoot
; )
 
wgzn said:
CORRECT! and youd also have a BACKUP of the card in its original format in the event you need to revisit it or move to another NLE or platform...
call me crazy but i consider drive space cheaper than a reshoot
; )
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This would only have validation if you copied your P2 cards to one drive and then did a Log & Transfer to another drive.
I use G-tech G raids and have not lost any footage in over 4 years. Once a drive gets full I back it up to a similar drive
and have copies of each P2 card on different drives. I always copy the P2 card to a hard drive first.
My point was, instead of having a 16 gig card AND 42 minutes worth of footage on the SAME hard drive,
you only need to have the P2 card on the hardrive using Raylight.

If your hard drive contained the P2 card and duplicate footage and crapped out then that would not be good - would it?
 
This would only have validation if you copied your P2 cards to one drive and then did a Log & Transfer to another drive.
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thats not entirely accurate... if you log and transfer a full card in FCP then discard the source. you are left with only the quicktime versions. and there may well be occasions where you'd need the original footage

If your hard drive contained the P2 card and duplicate footage and crapped out then that would not be good - would it?
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well no. but im not only talking about this from an archival standpoint. it has a lot to do with your personal workflow though. some people log and transfer full cards at a time. which i consider kind of needlessly wasteful and somewhat short-sighted. what we do is generate a list of takes we consider good on set. once we copy the full cards to our client drive, we log and transfer only the takes we marked.
but often we'll change our mind, need something else, or the client will want a different take. by keeping the source "as shot" on the drive. we can always go back to it
 
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wgzn said:
not entirely, no. if you log and transfer a full card in FCP then discard the source. you are left with only the quicktime versions.

well no. but im not only talking about this from an archival standpoint. it has a lot to do with your personal workflow though. some people log and transfer full cards at a time. which i consider kind of needlessly wasteful and somewhat short-sighted. what we do is generate a list of takes we consider good on set. once we copy the full cards to our client drive, we log and transfer only the takes we marked.
but often we'll change our mind, need something else, or the client will want a different take. by keeping the source "as shot" on the drive. we can always go back to it
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Raylight eliminates all of that. You can Raylight a 16 gig card in 10 secs and then you have ALL of the footage available.
I have shown dozens of clients and shooters Raylight and they won't go back to Log & Transfer.
I remember the early days of P2 when I would do what you are saying.
I would only L & T the takes requested and then dump the P2 card, only
to have the clients requesting something from the now deleted P2 cards....
After that I ALWAYS copied the P2 cards and for really important or high budget stuff
I would make another complete back-up.
Trying to find some odd take after doing a Log & Transfer without
all of the footage in front of you can be an exercise in frustration.
I do a lot of Motorhome walkarounds now. Sometimes I shoot
64 gigs of footage PER DAY over a 3 day period.
We are talking about 240 clips per 15 minute show.
And when you have 10 shows to cut - between 2000-2500 clips....
Now how long would that take to L & T??
And I have clips from 3 years back I use for this client.
So I have a library of about 4 Terabytes for this one client.
I have found that QuickTime clips can get corrupted from time to time.
In that case I can go back to the original P2 footage and re-Raylight.
 
my take on this conversation is that the OP is new to the game. there are already enough ways to potentially do things wrong, without introducing the variable of a 3rd party app (regardless of how helpful it may well be)

my goal is to answer the questions at hand as simply as possible.

not saying there arent other possibilities...
as my good friend yukon cornelius always said - "you eat what you like. and i'll eat what i like!"
 
wgzn said:
my take on this conversation is that the OP is new to the game. there are already enough ways to potentially do things wrong, without introducing the variable of a 3rd party app (regardless of how helpful it may well be)

my goal is to answer the questions at hand as simply as possible.

not saying there arent other possibilities...
as my good friend yukon cornelius always said - "you eat what you like. and i'll eat what i like!"
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Oh I understand completely. That is why I got a job over a competitor when I showed the client
that I could start editing immediately after I transferred cards to the hard drive.
It is one of those shoot all evening and edit overnight to deliver a show for a 10 AM meeting....

When the competitor said that it would be impossible to "digitize" 3 cameras footage
and deliver an edited piece in less than 8 hours..... well good bye to that job.

What is WGZN? A TV station?

Raylight is $150 -
 
To answer the OP's questions -

Manual focus, iris, and zoom - Not an issue on either camera. The only cameras in this range that beat the Panasonic are the Canon class from the A1 up, as they have the zoom, focus and iris all on the lens. The Panasonics have a feature that allows you to swap between iris/focus. When it's in manual focus, you have to use a wheel at the side to adjust the iris. When in autofocus, the same lens ring can instead control iris. You get good using this feature, and it's no problem, at all.

Decent sized LCD screen - No problem on either the HVX or HPX. The Canons have smaller LCDs, but more pixels. The Sony EX series has a better LCD overall.

XLR inputs, preferably 2 - All cameras in this range have dual XLR inputs.

ND filters - The HVX has two, the HPX three, which is quite nice actually.

The ability to transfer the footage to Final Cut Pro quickly and efficiently. - How quick are you expecting? I like the way my HPX works with FCP. It's practically copy, drag and drop and you're interframe editing. I own two 16gb cards and while it takes a few minutes to get into the camera, it's fairly quick. I much prefer this to the HDV and AVCHD editing I've had to do.

My price range is up to about $3500, though I would like to be in the $2500 range - You can definitely find either an HVX200a or HPX170 in this range. For $3500 you should be able to find a used HPX with low hours from a reputable buyer that comes with some goodies (two P2 cards, microphone, case/pack). Now is the time to buy. These cameras are "yesterday's news" in some peoples eyes because of the AF100 being out, but that doesn't mean they are bad news. They are actually great cameras. And I mean great. You'll find you can use them for almost anything and everything you'd want to shoot, and they are likely to make you money for a good year or so, or longer if you aren't in a super competitive arena. And the footage is still going to look very good in everyone's eyes for years.

As far as storage goes, P2 cards are expensive, but it's gotten to the point where HD space is so cheap. MacMall has a sale right now for 1TB drives for $50 with a rebate. Fifty bucks! That's like seventy full uncompressed 16gb P2 cards! Agree with WGZN though in that P2 isn't for everything, but it's close. It's not for marathon events, like seminars or long weddings. And if you're a true blue cinematographer and plan on making movies most of all, I'd save up for the AF100.
 
I just did some research on the cannon XH-A1S... this shoots in full 1080p? 1920x1080.

Anyone use this particular camera?

It is apparently very popular on Amazon.com
 
I just did some research on the cannon XH-A1S... this shoots in full 1080p? 1920x1080.
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people tend to get drunk on specs. particularly this spec. from where i sit. if you have to ask the question, it shouldnt be a decision making factor

It is apparently very popular on Amazon.com
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amazon. where the pro's get their gear ; )
 
Hmm im sensing a bit of sarcasm.

OK, well my whole deal is that I am wanting to grow my videography business into a production company. So far I have been doing freelance work using equipment that I am able to use from my college. I am in my final semester and I am looking at what equipment to get.

I have shot a lot with the HVX and HPX and Im happy with the quality. However one of my profs added the idea of getting a camera that shoots TRUE HD - 1080p 1920x1080.

I like the idea of being able to tell a client that I can shoot in full HD.

aside from that... I am not familiar with where to get good deals on equipment. I heard B&H was fair. I could go to sony or panasonic or cannon.com and Im sure I could find what Im looking for, but at a higher price. Some added direction on this could help.
 
"true hd" "full hd" yadda yadda... just a bunch of spec-speak and only a little more concern to most users than the now antiquated "broadcast quality"

pixel stretching, line doubling, reduced color sampling, booger eatin, booty scratchin, eatin dirt, just about EVERY camera under $100k is going to compromise something, somewhere. and there is always going to be some wiley sales guy, or spec-drunk college instructor. whos gonna say one camera is better because it's "true 1920x1080" without concern that it uses longGOP compression, a rolling shutter, clumsy codec or has inferior color sampling.

i've yet to hear of any cable channel or production company who wouldnt accept footage from an hvx/hpx except maybe IMAX ; )

good places to camera shop (in no particular order):

able cine
http://www.abelcine.com/store/home.php

full compass:
http://www.fullcompass.com/

b&h
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/

spec-comm
http://www.spec-comm.com/

adorama
http://www.adorama.com/

texas media systems
http://www.texasmediasystems.com/

these are some of the most popular dealers mentioned on the forum...
 
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