HVX200 Camera Package Rates

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DPwannaB

Member
Here's a question for everyone. Disregard DP/Operator rates...how will you charge for your camera package and for how much? Are you going to include P2 cards, laptops, monitors, all for a package price? I heard some people are going to rent the camera and the P2 cards for an additional price?

Just trying to run some numbers here and get a feel for everyone is going to do this.

As far as operator/DP rates are concerned, we should all try to stick together for the rates. Alot of these tv shows that are giving DV shooters low rates becuase they are 'dv shooters' and not full size 'broadcast' camera shooters are still making just as much $$ on their shows. We need to stick together. As more and more programming is being shot with DV/HD Handheld cams we need to watch our backs or all our rates will slip!

I know this post has become a 2-part question but I think the information is just as crucial as a lot of the techincal debates that occur here.:thumbsup:
 
I don't know what to offer for packages, but the same thing has happened in post production with low cost NLE systems. The rate card for NLE rental is about the full package and service and not so much about the editing system itself. Once that is set, it really is based on the talent of the operator.

Trying to get everyone to agree to a similar rate card will be difficult and comes down to each ones return on investment and revenue needed to make a living in whatever area of the country they live in as well as what the competitive market looks like.

Will you charge by format? So much for DV25, DV50, 720 and 1080? That is really hard to control although the HD can be controlled via the P2 cards and assuming the client doesn't already have those or rents them from someone else.

Will you also rent additional drives to dump the P2 content onto when shooting? Is that what the notebook is for?

Any new technology changes the way the business is done - in this case it is a multiple format camera as well as the challenges of working in a file based world (backup and backup of the backup, etc.).

Michael
 
There are just too many people in the business who need the credit/experience than the money. We were all there at one time. Look how many people will work for food in the indie community. That would be like telling all the Indie filmakers to pay Union scale to everyone they hire, regardless of experience. I get hit all the time by promises of "future work", "exclusive rights" yada yada yada.....
I have been a survivor of the industy for almost 25 years!!
I have made my living exclusively by video/film production for that length of time. I have done it by providing a good product at a fair rate.
 
DP,

I've been thinking of those kinds of questions as well, especially since I'm also located in Orlando. Having shot a lot of DV and seen the trend and the ability for clients to just purchase the very same equipment that I have.. I've started to market myself on the quality of my work and my professionalism/ track record rather than the equipment I have or such.. unless it is a 35mm shoot or a varicam shoot. In fact, I've had several clients go out and buy FCP and an XL2 and then call me up because they werent' happy with their own results. I think the same will be for selling the HD. I'm going to be giving people options for what format.. delivery methods and such. I'm also going to be hoping to increase my day rate to about half of what the Varicam goes for locally which would mean 750 for 10 and weekly rates there within.

The ability for producers to get cameramen to shoot for 300 or so just insults the hell out of me.. so I don't go anywhere near that rate even for DV. I think it's important to first off.. get clients onboard for HD as a future proof format, or at the least, I'll be showing them the DVCPRO 50 footage as an alternative to the DV they know and can afford.

Another important aspect in all of this is to be able to network locally as I know I'm going to be needing additional cameras and operators. Another very salient point is that Ross at Encore video said that he'll be renting the HVX as well as the P2 cards locally. So, any interst in starting up a local support group? and being able to set some standards is a great idea. I have seen what has happened in the local AC and DP market where the set price is established and then scabs come in and work for much less.. and then production companies expect everyone to come down in price. Thankfully, I do a lot of my own productions and hope to be able to deliver higher quality product at a 25 to 50 percent markup over DV. I don't think we can expect to rent our cameras for a grand a day.. but maybe 4-500 would be a good start with 300 for an operator.


Kudos and I've been waiting for this camera for an effin year now. i'm also interested in the 35mm adapters and the Dell monitor. Any reviews and suggestions?


Thanks from ya Orlando buddy


justyn
 
That's another intersting question concerning final delivery to the client. I know someone now that shoots varicam but delivers footage to the client in a digitized form on a hard-drive becuase the tapes are less convenient. SO...Should we charge a client for says a 300gb external drive that we use in the field transfering footage from P2-Laptop-External drive and then hand them that at the end of the shoot...instead of paying for tape stock essentially paying for the hard drive instead...
 
HVXguy said:
There are just too many people in the business who need the credit/experience than the money. We were all there at one time. Look how many people will work for food in the indie community. That would be like telling all the Indie filmakers to pay Union scale to everyone they hire, regardless of experience.
Click to expand...

Please understand I completely aggree with you on this one. I myself am in the middle. I've been shooting/DPing for a couple of years now. I work pay gigs quite often but when an indie film comes in that I really believe in I have worked for free. Granted there are conditions...Most of these are completely low budget films with no real money potential...I do them becuase I believe in the stories and I see them as fun opportunites.

I don't think anyone should work for free on a 'for profit' production that just seems foolish and it takes away money from the professionals.

I'm in the middle, I'm still young enough that people still ask me to work for free sometimes or for a low rate. Sometimes I oblige but only under the circumstances. If you work too long for free in the industry you shoot yourself in the foot. I'm trying to do this for a living, lol...
:happy:
 
Icarus2005 said:
I'll be offering HD for 200 more over my DV production rates.
Click to expand...

Now we are getting into some interesting areas. When you can
download footage in the field while you are shooting is that your editing rate or does it all flow while shooting? If you are bringing
a laptop to a shoot do you charge rental rate for that? Are you going to buy a $200 Harddrive and make the client buy that?? I will have to sell clients on the fact that it is a tradeoff. No more digitizing footage. I would probably as a routine copy all the footage after the shoot to another Hard drive that I keep. And for real high end work I would dump those to a DVD as well, multiple back-ups since we don't have a tape. Imagine when the client calls two years later to re-edit and they have lost, erased the footage?? Hard drives will go out on a regular basis and I do not trust them. Hurry up BluRay!!
I had a client yesterday asking me about Vegas video and why it was so expensive at $600, he found the lite version for $89 and announces that he will get that and then get an HD camera in a few years when they reach the $1000 price point...........:angry:
 
In the end we will all have to rely on our talent to get our jobs. The high end equipment will always be at a high price point but equipment the client deems 'acceptable' will continue to drop in price to a point they can just buy it and shoot themselves. Who would have though we would have a 6K HD cam with variable frame rates!

I too am concerned about archiving...As far as I am concerned charge the client for the Hard-Drive like it was tape stock. If they were shooting with the varicam they would be paying nearly the same for tape stock anyways.
 
Icarus2005 said:
I'll be offering HD for 200 more over my DV production rates.
Click to expand...

I know someone that was charging about 100-150 more for his HDV camera then his SD cameras. Here's an interesting question...HVX HD footage will be more expensive to shoot than HDV due to the costs of storage instead of tape (Probably a couple of hundred dollars). Forget about quality differences we all know that it's superior to HDV but here's the question. Do you think that the HVX will be in a seperate league of clients than the HDV becuase of the increased costs of 'tape stock' and if so should the rental rate for an HVX be more than an HDV camera.

I believe so but convincing some clients to pay more for a 'handheld' camera that looks just like the HDV cameras may be tough...Hopefully they'll be some smart clients out there that will really understand the difference.
 
Justyn,

A local group may be cool. Something to think about. I'm always happy to meet fellow operators. I do not belive we should be in competition with eachother, we are all in this together! :happy:
 
Great info all. I think that we'll be in the same HD hungry mode that I was in back in 2001 when I invested in a high end DVD authoring and printing system. It was more expensive than most people could afford so for several years I was making more money duplicating than I was producing because of the demand.. as well as the lack of local DVD duplication. For a glorious year back then, I was actually getting 15 dollars a DVD and 9 for a CD. Now however, everyone and there grandmother can afford a duplicator for 700 bucks and a priner for a hundred. They even sell the printable disks at Walmart now... So that market isn't nearly as productive.

The HD with this camera will be the same kind of thing. That's why I'm buying it as early as I can . Selling the sizzle along with the steak so to speak. This is easy enough to do when you can make even a SD DVD and show them the quality. That's what I've been doing with the footage I had from the Varicam as well as the downloaded HVX so graciously put up by others.

Another point to thing about is that I've approached old SD clients this past month solicting investments for the upgrade.. as well as upfront cash for projects that I know are coming. The results have been that I've been able to raise almost 10K from just my existing clients.. so that's the effin best to use other people's money. These investors will also get more bang for their buck as I'll be giving them reduced rates since they were assisting in the start up process. I just got done meeting with a client who wants to shoot some drag racing. I showed him the DV footage I had from the local figure 8 school bus races and then I showed him some HD footage I had from a Duncan Yoyo shoot.. along with the downloaded HD. Now, he never planned to shoot HD for his fears of cost, but when i gave him the pitch he was onboard and for 40 percent more than he expected. The results speak for themselves. So to one and all.. get others to pay for your camera for upcoming future jobs and then it's a big load off ya shoulders.


J
 
DPwannaB said:
I know someone that was charging about 100-150 more for his HDV camera then his SD cameras. Here's an interesting question...HVX HD footage will be more expensive to shoot than HDV due to the costs of storage instead of tape (Probably a couple of hundred dollars). Forget about quality differences we all know that it's superior to HDV but here's the question. Do you think that the HVX will be in a seperate league of clients than the HDV becuase of the increased costs of 'tape stock' and if so should the rental rate for an HVX be more than an HDV camera.
Click to expand...

The Canon XL-H1 is an HDV camera, but it sells for about the same price as an HVX with P2 cards. So in this case, there is no increased cost for "tape stock". I think you can charge more for DVCPro HD video, but it would have to be based solely on be increase in quality. After all, clients don't really care what your costs are, they only care about what they're getting for the money.

I think you can make a good case for the quality difference simply by referring to the fact that some of the TV networks, such as the Discovery Channel, will not accept HDV format, but they will accept DVCPro HD.
 
The simple answer is as much as I can. What that is I have no idea, but it's going to take a litlle while to figure out.

I don't even know what the accessories are going to cost for this camera. How much is a matte box and focus pull going to cost. I guess the glass I have will wok with HD.

I don't even know what my work flow will be, P2 > Laptop ext drive > editor maybe? Do I need some one downloading P2 cards while I continue to shoot? maybe thenCine Porter > HDD, how much time will that add to my day? More questions then answers at this point.
 
This just in.....
An editing client of mine just left. He was showing me his new
Sony HDV camera....Oh boy now I can get set-up to edit HDV as well!! Once he finds out I am getting the HVX he might get pissed.
 
local group

local group

DP,

I couldn't agree more. I don't think of locals as competition but more of assets, resources and potential employment. The only people to stick it to are the LA companies and HOLLYWOOD in general.

So when are you planning on buying? I'm hoping to have it around my birthday on the 24th or soon thereafter.


J




DPwannaB said:
Justyn,

A local group may be cool. Something to think about. I'm always happy to meet fellow operators. I do not belive we should be in competition with eachother, we are all in this together! :happy:
Click to expand...
 
The HVX is still a palmcorder in line with the other prosumer HDV cameras in the eyes of most clients. I have my operator rate, I expect to charge the same for the HVX as I those shooting with the Canon, I'll charge extra for using any media that is not tape, that is where the real value is for the clients. My rate is about 20-25% less for shooting on this style camera than shooting Varicam or DigiBeta. This is supply and demand because of the skill level of use of the camera. Most film school hacks can get away with shooting on the HVX - more power to them- but many would NOT be able to handle themselves on the type of shoot that requires the "Big Boys"
The difference is that I personally dont own a Varicam or DigiBeta, I do Own an HVX. So I find a happy medium and make money on the camera itself. Which I will charge for according to what gear I include in the package. I am interested in hearing what others say. In the end - this is a $6000 camera. Clients will know that. Everyday we have to prove we are worth the money as operators (VALUE)... with cameras becoming cheaper and easier we have to prove it more and more.
 
DPwannaB said:
Here's a question for everyone. Disregard DP/Operator rates...how will you charge for your camera package and for how much? Are you going to include P2 cards, laptops, monitors, all for a package price? I heard some people are going to rent the camera and the P2 cards for an additional price?

Just trying to run some numbers here and get a feel for everyone is going to do this.

As far as operator/DP rates are concerned, we should all try to stick together for the rates. Alot of these tv shows that are giving DV shooters low rates becuase they are 'dv shooters' and not full size 'broadcast' camera shooters are still making just as much $$ on their shows. We need to stick together. As more and more programming is being shot with DV/HD Handheld cams we need to watch our backs or all our rates will slip!

I know this post has become a 2-part question but I think the information is just as crucial as a lot of the techincal debates that occur here.:thumbsup:
Click to expand...

ok guys,
after reading this thread i realized i seriously put my foot in my mouth with my rate guessing on the other thread. i totally forgot about the other things that go along with shooting with this camera, not to mention the quality of picture issue.
you guys are ablolutely right and i was soooo wrong, my bad. i'm not gonna begin to try and guess the dollar amount that we should charge, i'll leave that up to each individual. whatever we charge it can not be low. and we can not let these cheap producers pay us dv wages. like i said in the other thread, if they don't want to pay the rate, then let them go rent the cam and shoot it themselves. eventually it will become known that what this camera can do in the trained hands of professionals will cost more money, period.
 
Well, Lets see, If your package has all the bells and whistles:

$285-350 Camera incl. P2 cards, and or Firestor, and Powerbook.
Client provides Hard drive for download
or
$90.00 LTO 2 backup tape
$30-50/hr for LTO backup.
or
$100.00/day Rented Hard drive

$40.00/day Prv Monitor
$40.00/day Head and Sticks
$60.00/day Lens control
$100-150/day mattebox, rods, baseplate
$15.00/day Lens mattes
$6.00/day/filter Filters
$60.00/day FF kit complete with whip

Of course you would charge for your experience as a DP. Please do not sell yourself short. If you have to make deals cut the price of your equipment but not your rate. Good and experienced Shooters are worth their weight in gold. Make up 3 day week package or get a full days rental then slash the following days by half, be creative. And always consider your Clients budget. Try to be sensitive when negotiating and if there isn’t enough money, realy decide if that is the job you should be involved in. Anyway this is just my opinion and doesn’t represent any majority thoughts that might be out there. I hope this helps.
 
Justyn,

Unfortunately probably not for another 6 months...I want to get it all at once with support gear so I'm not jurry rigging my package. Monitors, Matteboxes, etc...all add up, I'm assuming a 10K investment when it is all said and done. In the mean time I'll just keep relying on my DVX to bring in the income. BUT I see the demand for the HVX seriously picking up in 6 months once the word gets out to clients they will start demanding it and will be accustomed to the workflow by then...in my opinion.
 
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