HVX Users: UNITE!

A union in theory is great.. Kind of like communism is great as a theory, but not in practice. This is for the simple reason that there are always SCABS. It happened here in Orlando where one AC started working a full 12 hour day for 250 when pretty much everyone had established a 400 day rate minimum. Within a short while productions were expecting everyone to work for that SCAB rates.. and boy did it piss the other AC's off.

One thing I now have to do is set up a price list. Just like in most other businesses.. that's a standard thing. From there negotiations can happen and people know what they are getting and what to expect.

The 2nd thing.. is that I don't do flat rate deals.. because invariably you'll hear this most dreaded saying... "OH, by the way".


I just also think that our profession suffers two fold. Everyone has a camera and thinks they are a cameraman and can do it themselves and secondly, people don't give us any credit for the skills and talents it takes. I personally lost two very good friends of mine over some comments and observations to the gist that what I do isn't a skill or as importantant as them... because they are engineers. I can say for myself that I had the background to go into Chemistry or something in Math.. but that's not a badge or role I wanted to take....


We have to let our work speak for itself. I've had several clients go out and buy exactly the same gear that I have because it's now reasonable... but invariably, they'll call me back to do the work.

WE HAVE TO SELL THE MAN BEHIND THE CONTROLS.. and not the TOYS. I think this same thing has happend to still photographers.. and ya really seeing it now to web and graphic designers...

Sucks but it's the world we are in ...
 
I had the background to study Nuclear Physics....OK stop laughing, no really I did...had a partial schlorship to study at UT Austin. Blew it off...Dad I want to be a photographer!! My dad still thinks I am an idiot who can take great photos!!
 
Mike. I would like to have that turned into eithat a tatoo... a wallet sized daily affirmation (sp?) and company mission statement.


That sums it up perfectly.. and why as artists we are constantly seen as fools because we go with everything guided by the heart. Wouldn't want to have it any other way. Could you imagine sitting in a lab surrounded by test tubes and crap.... or am I dreaming.
 
Dude, I use to sit around in labs and chambers and such. When I went to a three day tour of the UT campus I could not stop taking photos of all the Co-eds so I thought that's it! The way to fame and babes!! At least I got a babe out of the deal!
 
Cynic821 said:
I dont get how you guys can do that with clients personally. I guess im old fashioned and always have been about making each experience a personal one. And charging per mile ? THings like that i find kind of dick headish, and just wouldnt be able to bring myself to do that. Ive charged plenty before and i make friends with my clients. If it costs me 100 bucks now to be friends with someone, but i get repeat business garunteed. I think thats a better trade off then letting someone go home and think im an asshole for charging an extra .47 cents for a mile.
Click to expand...


"Dick headish"- no it's called good business practice, and it's 37 not 47 cents per mile . So I drive 150, 200, 250 miles for a shoot and I shouldn't charge for mileage ? Maybe gas in your area is still $1.90, and maybe you don't drive far for jobs, but gas is $3.00-ish here and big drives are not out of the question. Also, remember that I said after 40 miles I start charging mileage.

It's called an operating expense, otherwise it's a reduction of profit. I also have the discretion to waive or reduce that expense if it's appropriate for the shoot or client- good PR, much better than buying lunch, which I do as well . That's a much better porsition to be in than eating operating costs- both business wise and client relationship wise. And yeah, I have great relationships with my clients, in part because I've established a business standard. That standard creates respect and an equal playing field. It also puts the discretion for favors back in my hands rather than the other way around . Otherwise you are subsidizing your clients transportation costs, and I am not their fleet vehicle. That being said, 37 cents per mile is a drop in the bucket compared to them renting a vehicle if they are out of town clients or using their own vehicle.
 
hotchkiss said:
"Dick headish"- no it's called good business practice, and it's 37 not 47 cents per mile . So I drive 150, 200, 250 miles for a shoot and I shouldn't charge for mileage ? Maybe gas in your area is still $1.90, and maybe you don't drive far for jobs, but gas is $3.00-ish here and big drives are not out of the question. Also, remember that I said after 40 miles I start charging mileage.

It's called an operating expense, otherwise it's a reduction of profit. I also have the discretion to waive or reduce that expense if it's appropriate for the shoot or client- good PR, much better than buying lunch, which I do as well . That's a much better porsition to be in than eating operating costs- both business wise and client relationship wise.....
Click to expand...

I'm sure that cynic missed the 40 mile mark, and I agree with you. Their are clients who become friends and long time customers, but it is difficult to turn friends into customers unless they are either in the industry, and or are business owners themselves that know first hand what it costs to operate and profit in a business.

The easy way to understand charging for mileage, is to substitute airfare. If you had to get on a plane to do the job, I sure hope you charged for the ticket, parking, hotel, van rental, etc. Soon as you go out of town, then it is the clients job to pick up the ticket. They are hiring talent, and if they have to move the talent then they pay for it.

An example of a perfect client happened two weeks ago for me. We had a shoot that started in one location in the morning and shifted to the beach in the afternoon. The distance from the morning location to the beach was less than 5 miles. We had a beach permit and permission to have a vehicle on the sand. The grip truck was too heavy to move down to the sand, so the producer looked at my 4X4 and offered me an extra $300 to use my truck to move equipment from the parking lot to the sand location. At first I turned it down (the producer is a 10+ year friend), but he was adamant, and explained that it would cost him that much and probably more if he had to have a PA run out and rent a 4X4. He said #1 that it was the right thing to do, and that he felt bad that my personal vehicle was getting the slightest exposure to salt water. Understand, this is my7 year old "work" truck with 125,000 miles on it, and he was considerate enough to compensate me for its 1 hour transport use.

So yes it is a business, and I feel fortunate to work with pros.

--

Rob
 
Those who prostitu... I mean, market themselves based on price commit business suicide. Not only does it attract undesirable clients, like Barry said, but it creates bad habits. That's what the local cable company did with spot production. Years later when their production department closed down (because of profitibility - imagine that) those that wanted to pick up that business have had to "re-train" the market on pricing. You'll never make a living being the Wal-Mart of production companies. I totally agree with the principle of perceived value.

I've also charged for mileage (and travel time) for years when a gig is outside my immediate geographic area. No one has ever questioned or complained - and they're repeat clientelle. Sure, you gotta pay attention to relationships and great service but you also gotta keep an eye on the bottom line - profit margins. You can go broke real quick in this business.
 
I dont think you should go broke outta no where. If your pricing is causing you to go broke, then there already was a mistake with your business where somehow you didnt catch the fact you were losing money. Thats a personal fault, and when theres a problem, its time to adjust. And flying out to do some business in a different area goes against what this thread is about isnt it? Thats not undercutting, but kind of like the old wrestling days of territories, and maybe youd be invading someone elses HVX territory. hmmmm
 
Cynic821 said:
How the hell did you come up with 37 cents in the first place? Kind of off the wall.
Click to expand...

That's the current( may have been increased) reimbursement rate per mile that the IRS accepts. Off the wall- not.
 
Cynic821 said:
I dont think you should go broke outta no where. If your pricing is causing you to go broke, then there already was a mistake with your business where somehow you didnt catch the fact you were losing money. Thats a personal fault, and when theres a problem, its time to adjust. And flying out to do some business in a different area goes against what this thread is about isnt it? Thats not undercutting, but kind of like the old wrestling days of territories, and maybe youd be invading someone elses HVX territory. hmmmm
Click to expand...

LoL.... So traveling for shoots is cutting in on someone elses turf. Please tell me your kidding . If so, I need to apologize to all of those Dp's in the greater Chicagoland area. My sin- I recently had a six day shoot there for a syndicated show. Sorry.

The point of this thread was to deal with people who lowball, not to curtail professional success. So should we be limited to working within our zip code, county or maybe just the state we reside in ?
 
dvInsight said:
I'm sure that cynic missed the 40 mile mark, and I agree with you. Their are clients who become friends and long time customers, but it is difficult to turn friends into customers unless they are either in the industry, and or are business owners themselves that know first hand what it costs to operate and profit in a business.

The easy way to understand charging for mileage, is to substitute airfare. If you had to get on a plane to do the job, I sure hope you charged for the ticket, parking, hotel, van rental, etc. Soon as you go out of town, then it is the clients job to pick up the ticket. They are hiring talent, and if they have to move the talent then they pay for it.

An example of a perfect client happened two weeks ago for me. We had a shoot that started in one location in the morning and shifted to the beach in the afternoon. The distance from the morning location to the beach was less than 5 miles. We had a beach permit and permission to have a vehicle on the sand. The grip truck was too heavy to move down to the sand, so the producer looked at my 4X4 and offered me an extra $300 to use my truck to move equipment from the parking lot to the sand location. At first I turned it down (the producer is a 10+ year friend), but he was adamant, and explained that it would cost him that much and probably more if he had to have a PA run out and rent a 4X4. He said #1 that it was the right thing to do, and that he felt bad that my personal vehicle was getting the slightest exposure to salt water. Understand, this is my7 year old "work" truck with 125,000 miles on it, and he was considerate enough to compensate me for its 1 hour transport use.

So yes it is a business, and I feel fortunate to work with pros.

--

Rob
Click to expand...

Here here, lets hear it for working with pro's. A true friend in this business respects your business and the need to make a profit.
 
David S. said:
Given that I am a lawyer, that would be a restraint of trade.

Better to have a union.
Click to expand...

If individual business folks talk about standards for business practices it's called "restraint of trade". If corporations become monopolies squashing competition and manufacturers through control of distribution and manufacturing channels - it's called " the free market". It's really hard to hear this term used by corporations without choking.

There are other more accurate words for that kind of blatant hypocrisy.
 
hotchkiss said:
That's the current( may have been increased) reimbursement rate per mile that the IRS accepts. Off the wall- not.
Click to expand...

IRS Announces 2006 Standard Mileage Rates

WASHINGTON — The Internal Revenue Service today issued the 2006 optional standard mileage rates used to calculate the deductible costs of operating an automobile for business, charitable, medical or moving purposes.

Beginning Jan. 1, 2006, the standard mileage rates for the use of a car (including vans, pickups or panel trucks) will be:

44.5 cents per mile for business miles driven.

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=151226,00.html
 
Cynic821 said:
And flying out to do some business in a different area goes against what this thread is about isnt it? Thats not undercutting, but kind of like the old wrestling days of territories, and maybe youd be invading someone elses HVX territory. hmmmm
Click to expand...


No.

My client flys me all over the country to shoot for them, (incuding San Francisco) :) , because I am a known quantity for them and they don't mind paying for quality.

Free market economics is a wonderful thing.
 
I've worked both sides of union and non-union entertainment - playing roles as laborer, steward, collective bargaining negotiator and business owner alike over the years.

It is an inexperienced or grossly ignorant statement to protest that organized labor "does not or cannot" work - to globally discount the underlying concepts of collective bargaining as wholly untenable.

To the contrary, today's rates and working standards across myriad industries were largely established by (and maintained through) organizations that function under the greater jurisdiction of the AFL-CIO in the United States of America.

While many are happy to point daftly toward over-zealous unions as the key reason manufacturing jobs are moving off-shore, one only has to look at the standards where they eventually land to see what evils corporate America would unleash on the working population if they could only get away with at home.

Child labor, uncompensated overtime, six and seven day weeks and so on - all without the most basic at-will protections found in domestic employment - would be the flavor of the day were it not for the constant actions underwritten by, lobbied for and enforced through unions.

The unfortunate situation one nameless Beaverton, Oregon corporation found themselves in in recent years should serve as a perfect illustration for why unions are still needed.

Now, all that said, I still work non-union on a regular basis. The union I'm affiliated with doesn't always have, or always have an interest in, the jurisdictions where I work.

Unions certainly aren't perfect. Anywhere there is a union, there exists at least some margin for improvement.

With all the warts that come with it, organized labor is the reason we have "scales", "day-rates", "minimums" and the greater collective bargaining protections we collectively enjoy in the entertainment industry.

Newcomers hoping to undercut the greater establishment in the name of "experience" only does damage to the larger institution. These same people are the ones who resent and lament the poor working conditions and rate-of-compensation after they've "paid their dues" on three weddings where they cleared five bucks an hour by the time deliverables made it to the end-client.

This is a good place to discuss these issues, and we can certainly do so without crossing lines that might draw attention and concern from legal quarters.

Let's keep this one going.

e
 
So now we are talking free market instead of uniting as the topic's Title was originally stated. Way to keep it indipendent and about the local guys out there. :P

Im not to concerned either way, I am just bringin up random points but i dont understand why you guys are getting so worked up.

Bring on the flames i guess though big guys! Im actually speechless
 
Last edited:
I think the drive and direction behind the formation of a union will almost always be of worthy purposes in one form or another. Whether to stand in favor of that kind of way for establishing an end to a means or not, one of the biggest obstacles a professional in this day and age faces, is the easy access to high end technology among nonprofessionals.

Newcomers and inexperienced manpower in the field is booming. There are ways in which I fall into that category of being inexperienced and in contrast , there are ways in which I have become a professional in what I do.

As technology falls within reach of more and more people, the standard of what is acceptable becomes more broadened and jaded. My only inclination is to pursue the highest standards I can and charge accordingly without underselling myself.
 
Cynic821 said:
I dont get how you guys can do that with clients personally. I guess im old fashioned and always have been about making each experience a personal one. And charging per mile ? Things like that i find kind of dick headish, and just wouldnt be able to bring myself to do that. Ive charged plenty before and i make friends with my clients. If it costs me 100 bucks now to be friends with someone, but i get repeat business garunteed. I think thats a better trade off then letting someone go home and think im an asshole for charging an extra .47 cents for a mile.
Click to expand...

We're talking business in this thread - plain and simple.

Worrying over creating and maintaining "friendships" with your clients should never come before or replace the establishment of a mutually beneficial and professional relationship based solely on your ability to deliver a product in a timely and professional fashion.

Friendships and business concerns almost always make bad bedfellows. Don't think for a minute that the person who hires you puts your perceived "friendship" before the business concern you've been retained to look after.

It is those situations that can get the ugliest the quickest.

e
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top