HVX Purchase - Please Advise

H

humdrum

Member
Thanks in advance for reading my somewhat lengthy post. I'd like your advice on whether you think the HVX-200 camera is too ambitious a purchase for me.

I currently have a mini-DV 3-ccd camera (TRV-900) that I bought 6 years ago. I want to upgrade to a new camera, in part to document my family and new baby (i.e. home movies). I can wait a couple years for the HD market to figure itself out, but that's a couple years of footage I'll have to capture in SD using an aging camera rather than in HD using a MUCH better camera. I also want to upgrade in order to explore some creative projects. A 2-minute experiment here. A 10-minute short there. Who knows, maybe I'll get good and make something serious.

I have only ever edited on my Mac using iMovie and Final Cut, and burned to DVD for viewing by family and friends. I have used Soundtrack and LiveType, but I have never used external monitors, or color corrected, or used After Effects. I am confident I could learn such skills in time.

Unless I decide to form a side business venture (hmm . . .), I am not a professional. I am a hobbyist making a decision as to how to spend my own money. $10k for camera and equipment won't break the bank; it will just be my big purchase for the year (or two). I won't be vacationing in Hawaii anytime soon, or trading in my car for a few more years, or re-doing the bathroom, etc., etc. It's about choice and I don't want to make a foolish grab for a shiny toy that is beyond my capabilities or won't deliver what I want.

So, why the HXV-200? Because from what I've read (and I've read a lot), it is an excellent product for shooting quality entry-level pro footage. I like the sound of that. I don't mind spending some money to shoot that kind of quality footage. It would be fun, and I would enjoy it. That is a hobby I could get behind.

Plus, it will give me all the more incentive to learn more about the craft of film production if the end-product is rewarding in terms of both skill/art AND objective footage quality. My time is limited (full-time job; new baby), so I can't just spend a semester studying film production. Time is ticking and the baby will be walking soon enough. I will need to develop whatever skills I have on-the-spot. I'd rather spend that precious time learning on a camera that I can grow into.

Also, I know HD is not there yet, but it is around the corner and I like the idea of capturing the footage now (esp. the home movies) in a format that will reward me eventually. I am hesitant to buy into a dying format (SD on mini-DV) or a transitional/not-ready-for-prime-time format (HDV on mini-DV). I have considered the Sony/Canon HDV cameras, and haven't ruled them out, but using HDV in the editing process that I know (Mac, Final Cut) seems like a chore and the final product too compressed. (A simplified explanation, I know. It's a weighty subject).

So, why NOT the HVX-200? Well, here's why not: I don't want to spend my money or time foolishly, or be overly ambitious as to what I can accomplish. In other words, I'm not sure that this camera will get me to where I want to go - either because I don't have the skill or because don't want to commit another $10k in equipment.

This is where advice from you good folks is especially helpful. I don't need to know HOW to do the following stuff right now, but I need to know that I CAN do it:

1. Dump footage from the HVX-200 to my PB, edit on Final Cut, export a movie for use in iDVD, burn to a DVD and show to my friends/family. No problems with that, right? And that would be a SD DVD, right?

2. Archive the pre-exported product (that would be a QT movie, right?) until such time as I can spend the time/money to color correct.

3. Export that finalized product in HD format for burning to a HD DVD (once the prices on HD DVD burners come down).

Finally (and this is a biggee) can a guy like me get it all done with some hard work and the HVX-200 manuals/DVDs/how-to guides? I am a novice to this camera and I have no formal shooting training, but I'm a pretty quick DIY study on stuff like this.

I really appreciate your feedback. I know that many (most?) of you are professionals in your field, so your advice is very helpful to someone like me, trying to take their hobby up a notch or three.

(Just so you know, if you ever took up my full-time job as a hobby, I would definitely respond to your posts. Of course, people don't choose my profession as their hobby. Yawwwn.)
 
Yes the HVX can do everything you are asking about.

But it does seem like a bit of massive overkill; I mean, if you don't need 24p and you want an interim, low-cost way to go, something like the small Canon MV10 might suffice.

The HVX is, in my opinion, the most professional and most-used-professionally HD camcorder in its price range. But you sound like you're more interested in a hobbyist tool, and the HVX is not inexpensive once fully kitted out (although costs have come down). I'd suggest that yes, the HVX can do what you want, and if you want it, and can afford it, there's nothing wrong with getting it; just consider that it would seem to be a bit extravagant. I bet a lot of people here wish they were in your position!
 
I'd say part of the anwer is how much money you have. If you're a rich guy, then why not. (I wish I had 10k burning a hole in MY pocket...) if budget IS a concern I vote for the canon A1 which tips the scales at 3700 bucks.
 
Thanks for the replies.

I think that 24p would be great. It's a large reason I was attracted to the HVX as an upgrade, and why I also am considering the DVX100b as a non-HD upgrade. In fact, the DVX100b is a very attractive choice; I'm just not sure I want to sacrifice the ability to shoot HD and use that footage either now or when the editing workflow improves.

I am guessing that the Canon MV10 is the UK version of the HV10, which looks like a great consumer-grade camera but doesn't seem like much of an upgrade from the 3-chip trv-900. Yes, it has HD, but again the HDV editing workflow seems more costly and time-consuming right now. Plus, those light-weight consumer cams don't seem to me to be a step in the right direction in terms of making a more serious home movie or short flick. I just don't see myself growing or learning with the HV10. But maybe I'm missing something. I haven't really looked to hard at that choice.

As for the A1, that was one of the first models I looked at as an upgrade, and the reviews are definitely great. I just have heard a lot more people say that the price bump from the A1 to the HVX is well worth it, mostly because of the HDV workflow. Whether that's true for me is something I'm still trying to figure out.

Finally, I certainly didn't mean to come off as a "rich guy" with money to burn. I tried to convey just the opposite: that I have to think long and hard, and do lots of research before I decide how to spend my hard-earned money. I assume that's how we all do it. If I were the rich guy, I wouldn't be posting here. I'd be waiting for my weekly B&H package. :dankk2:
 
brianluce said:
I'd say part of the anwer is how much money you have. If you're a rich guy, then why not. (I wish I had 10k burning a hole in MY pocket...) if budget IS a concern I vote for the canon A1 which tips the scales at 3700 bucks.
Click to expand...

Actually, $3600 at most retailers now, including B&H.:beer:
 
humdrum said:
As for the A1, that was one of the first models I looked at as an upgrade, and the reviews are definitely great. I just have heard a lot more people say that the price bump from the A1 to the HVX is well worth it, mostly because of the HDV workflow. Whether that's true for me is something I'm still trying to figure out.
:dankk2:
Click to expand...

I'm an HDV user (that sounds sinister...) and though there are reasons to chose an HVX over an A1 but I don't think workflow is one of them . The key to editing HDV is an intermediary codec. I edit hdv fluently on a 5 yearold computer. It's painless using Cineform.

Also, you're talking about what sounds like a lot of long form recording (family stuff) and I've never felt the HVX is particularly well suited to that unless you go with a Firestore.
 
i personally find the HDV format totally useless. there is just way too much that it doesnt do well - and way too little that it does.
 
As an HVX user, I must warn you about non camera related expenses- You need archiving solutions- and you need something reliable, not only hard disks. SO I would suggest the iomega rev drives, but that costs about 500 dollars. Each disk is about 30 or 40 bucks. Not cheap. They hold 70 gb, or about 70 minutes of 1080p/i footage. So do your math there. For output you would need an HD solution that's not the camera for anything longer than 20 minutes in DVCPRO HD 1080. Unlike HDV, where you can export to tape one hour of footage. You would need either a notebook with a matrox mxo for displaying your longform edited content, or buying an HD recorder, either HDDVD or Blu-Ray. On mac both formats are still not recordable.

If you are VERY RICH, you can buy the DVCPRO HD deck. But, for that, you would be better off getting the HDX900, the HVX's big brother, but without P2.

Since you are not doing the most demanding professional work with lots of motion or effects, I believe The A1 is your way to go. That's untill Blu-Ray disks and burners become affordable. We are still far away from that time. As for HDV editing, nowadays, all major NLE's support it fairly natively.

But if you are rich... The HVX definetly gives the better picture from both cameras.
 
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i think each person knows in his/her heart if the hvx is for them.. at first when i got on this forum i was into buying a dvx.. then i read up on the hvx.. it was like a disease.. i had to have that camera, i even had dreams i was shooting with it..lol (seriously). If you plan to take the extra time to indulge into the camera and work as you said.. on small projects on the side.. then i suggest go for it.. but know this..

the camera needs a lot of time and patience to get the best out of it, also p2 cards at the moment are not for long non-stop shooting unless you have 2 of them and u swap and dump the footage on a P2 store or laptop... even though slapping it on auto with a miniDV tape for family occasions will produce an awesome image also.. :)
 
I bought my HVX200 last week Tuesday, and I had similar doubts.

Cause I don't really really need HD now, or so I thought !!!!!

Now that I have the camera I'm VERY HAPPY that I spent that kind of money on it, and trust me in South Africa it's very expensive, about US$7000.

I am in love with this camera!!! And the DVCPro Codec's are just awesome!

But again, you're the only one who knows if you can spend the bucks on something of this cost.


- Derrick
 
I agree with the other posters, if you can afford it, go for it but it sounds like hammering a nail with a building based upon your needs.

It's really the shooter, not the camera. I have been watching "Extras" season 1. I know that the show is shot on PAL DBeta. Once the show is color corrected, graded and film-looked, it looks pretty much like 24P. It's interesting to watch the featurettes as they use scenes that were not color corrected and film-looked, the contrast is amazing. But that show is good example of how the writing and acting make the show, not the lighting and cinematography. It's a funny show because of Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant.

My point is, it sounds as if you may be over aspiring to merely make home movies. I am in the midst of editing a home movie I shot on my DVX-100A about a year and half ago. The footage is 4x3 NTSC and it looks great. Just natural lighting, other than my interviews with my kids and some friend's kids, which I did light nicely. I am pitching a new television show. It will be mainly shot on the HVX-200 but it involves hidden cameras and car-mounted cameras for parts of it. Even though I hate HDV (we have three of the Sony Z1), the little Canon HV-10s with a wide angle lens sounds like the hot ticket for those other applications. To be honest, I could shoot the entire show on the HV-10 and it would probably look pretty good. It has a strong concept, a top notch crew, beautiful locations and is interesting. But shooting on the HVX-200 as the main camera will be so much easier. It really comes down to convenience.

Go for whatever you want, if you have the money, cool! The HVX kicks ass and is my second favorite camera I have ever had in 20 years in this business. But I would make sure that you really want to spend that much time, money and effort for such an important yet non-professional use. You are a beginning driver getting ready to buy a Ferrari. Nothing wrong with it, but possibly overkill? HDV sounds like a more practical choice and a heck of a lot cheaper. You will spend at least the 10k for the camera, a few cards, a store, some more advanced software. Then you may discover you need a more powerful computer. Then you will want a real monitor, then... It's a slippery slope that we all go down but as pros, at least we are making money with it. You won't be, at least not right off the bat.

Best of luck with whichever way you chose to go,

Dan
 
Thanks again for the replies. I am definitely still really torn.

On the one hand, the HDV option seems the most logical. I use FCE right now, and I'm used to the mini-DV workflow and archiving. I could buy the XH-A1 or the V1U (currently researching differences between those two). With the "savings" I could buy some lighting and better audio. Great camera and very do-able upgrade. Plus, the learning curve on the camera is a little less steep, so I can focus more time on learning shooting techniques.

On the other hand, for every post that says that HDV is a perfectly fine - albeit imperfect - format, there are 5 posts that express absolute disdain. It's hard to read all that negativity and still be excited about a big investment in this technology. I like my Mac and working with FCE. Upgrading to FCP is one thing. Switching computers or software is a whole other thing, and I'm not that interested.

ALSO, besides all the great attributes of the HVX-200 that attracted me to the camera in the first place, I really like the idea of the solid state workflow rather than the one-foot-out-the-door tape format (maybe not quite, but you get the point). I won't be doing that much field work or long events, so even one or two P2 cards will work, at least until prices start coming down.

BUT, I hear you all on the extra costs. I already have put aside $2k for a new tripod, a basic light kit and mic updates. Realistically, once you factor in tax, shipping and case, the A1 is around $4k, the V1U is about $4.5 and the HVX-200 is around $5.5.

Thus, the A1 package is $6k, the V1U package $6.5.

The HVX-200 package would be $8.8 (because I would ALSO need to upgrade to FCP for $1.3k). Then, of course, I'd be pushing the edge of my 1.67 G4 machine. And that price would still leave me with a very short-shoot capability unless I get another P2 card ($1k) or the Firestore ($1800), or if I shot SD onto mini-DV (which would be fine in a pinch).

(Yes, I know the prices may be off by a tad, but you get the idea).

And let me tweak the analogies slightly: I don't think I'm trying to hammer a nail with a building, or that I'm a brand new driver pricing a Ferrari. I think it's more like I'm trying to build a shed using a 3-story crane, or perhaps a relatively new driver pricing a Porsche 911.

ANYway, thanks again for your input, which I value. I am still really torn, and continuing my research.
 
As long as you're aware of the costs, and the differences between the capabilities of the various products, I think you're doing fine here. Your 1.67 G4 is probably going to be fine; I've seen DVCPRO-HD cut on a 1.33ghz G4 and it was full-screen, full-frame-rate, full-resolution in realtime.
 
humdrum said:
Thanks again for the replies. I am definitely still really torn.

.

On the other hand, for every post that says that HDV is a perfectly fine - albeit imperfect - format, there are 5 posts that express absolute disdain. It's hard to read all that negativity and still be excited about a big investment in this technology. I like my Mac and working with FCE. Upgrading to FCP is one thing. Switching computers or software is a whole other thing, and I'm not that interested.

.
Click to expand...

There are two types of critics of HDV, the actual users and the "Measurebators" (not my term) who invariably base their opinions not on hands on but on technical understanding. I'd venture to say the former is a much smaller group than the latter in regards to HDV. It's the theoretical versus the real world.

I use to work for a company that shot with a very fine D-50 Beta cam which is an analog format. When I took over I considered upgrading to an all digital workflow. Several 'Measurebators" told me that converting analogue to digital would always produce nasty artifacts. So I confronted our lead editor and he said the artifacts were not visible. He invited me to try to find them. I couldn't. Theoretically betacam is not perfectly suited to a digital facility, but in the real world, it works just fine.

For further insight look at Adam Wilt's review of HDV vis a vis the hd100. Adam is a Princeton educated engineer and best thought of as the Guru of Gurus. No one is more discriminating. As I recall, Adam did find a few shortcomings in the format but they were generally nominal . Also look to Walter Graff's hd100 vs hvx200 comparison.

Regarding the hd100, it's a good camera but probably not what you're looking for, but alot has been written about it and it is hdv so you can use it as an HDV benchmark.
 
will your wife let you get it? if so, get it before she changes her mind!!! that's rule number one. if you have a baby on the way, and she still says go for it, you have to take advantage of that brother!!!
 
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