HVX or EX1?

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Why is it that so many find it hard to believe that the EX1 could possibly be a decent camera. It's almost as if the ones who tend to dwell on this can't imagine that maybe someday someone will make a better camera.

I think the EX1 is quite the camera, even though it has the rolling shutter issues.
But, if something else comes around that offers this quality in a small package without the rolling shutter issues, I'll buy it.
I could care LESS who makes it..... Panny, Sony, Canon, Matel .... ;)
 
Stevet said:
Why is it that so many find it hard to believe that the EX1 could possibly be a decent camera. It's almost as if the ones who tend to dwell on this can't imagine that maybe someday someone will make a better camera.

I think the EX1 is quite the camera, even though it has the rolling shutter issues.
But, if something else comes around that offers this quality in a small package without the rolling shutter issues, I'll buy it.
I could care LESS who makes it..... Panny, Sony, Canon, Matel .... ;)
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How true. I love their logic as well. "The images look great as stills, but there's distortion when moving - play it back frame by frame and you'll see it."

v
 
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Well that makes three of us.

I am not sure how anyone could resist buying such a spectacular camera now that it's available.

The resistance is amazing!
 
Its probably because your a blindsighted fanboy Mathew77 muhahahaha

Anyway who cares guys, aren't we in circles? The EX is in the midst of marketing so it will make silly claims, and folk will go 'hey thats not true' just like ANY OTHER CAMERA.

So obviously there will be dissapointed sceptics and others that are delighted!
 
lawriejaffa said:
Its probably because your a blindsighted fanboy Mathew77 muhahahaha
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I am many things, but I am not a fanboy.

As someone who has owned both cameras, I am trying to contribute an ounce of truth to the wild speculation, hearsay and fanboyism that some convey on this forum.
 
I was really looking forward to the EX1, it looked great at first for my application, "action sports" but then I found out about the rolling shutter and I was highly dissapointed. I wasn't going to sell my HVX for one anyway, but it would've been nice to have a real competitor for the HVX, action sports wise. (and nice to possibly use one, like a company camera)

The stuff I shoot, there can be flash photography in the shots, and there is also handheld work with possible quick panning, so the EX1 is a big no no.

If the EX1 didn't have a rolling shutter, you'd see a lot more people embrace it, but that's a given.

A lot of people are too fond of HDV either, even though on the EX1 the picture and compression on the picture seems to be really good.
 
Stevet said:
Why is it that so many find it hard to believe that the EX1 could possibly be a decent camera. It's almost as if the ones who tend to dwell on this can't imagine that maybe someday someone will make a better camera.

I think the EX1 is quite the camera, even though it has the rolling shutter issues.
But, if something else comes around that offers this quality in a small package without the rolling shutter issues, I'll buy it.
I could care LESS who makes it..... Panny, Sony, Canon, Matel .... ;)
Click to expand...

Steve, honestly, nobody's against the EX-1 or Sony. It's really the idea that the camera doesn't seem to be what some of us consider an "upgrade". Some will, some won't.

Noel Evans is in no way a Pana only guy. And myself? I'll jump ship the second I see another camera that offers as much functionality to image quality ratio as the HVX does. In fact, I was one of the people that wanted to jump ship from the EX-1, along with a fella named DXmetal around here.

Just so happens that pros of the EX-1 aren't enough for others, that's all. I love the high resolution, less noise, etc. When I get a chance here to borrow someone's EX-1 I'm gonna keep it for a week and try to use it on a Music Video or narrative short, but the more I look at Phillip Bloom's stuff (as nice as it looks) it just doesn't sing as strong as A1 or HVX stuff to ME. Very nice and noise-less, awesome in lowlight, more recording time... just still doesn't do it for some people.

Keep in mind, when the next offering from Canon or Sony hits you'll probably see me ready to sell my HVX yet again to jump ship for a better image. I'm no fanboy, just know what's been working for me.
 
RE1000 said:
The stuff I shoot, there can be flash photography in the shots, and there is also handheld work with possible quick panning, so the EX1 is a big no no.
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You're right. That could cause weird distortion - almost like the kind you would get from a fisheye adapter.

v
 
Kholi,
Thanks for the reply.
I hear you there.... And I've never mentioned for anyone to drop their existing cameras. In fact, a while back, I've posted just the opposite for HVX200 users.

Even with image pros and cons between these cameras, this would mean a new workflow. Possibly involving the expense of memory, computer, software...
It doesn't make sense to bail at that point...

It just is not that big of a leap. But, if Sony had managed to not have the rolling shutter design, this might of made the difference, or maybe not.

I've always like the HVX200, but ended up bailing on it after doing extensive testing a couple years ago with another camera owner who frequents this board and is now buying the RED ONE. At that time, we went with a couple JVC HD100 cameras with its HDV, CA and all.... ;)

Having said that, a lot are still dropping over $30k to $50K USD on a RED ONE package and goodies.
 
Jeez Stevet, thats the point the guy made, you say you can understand that 'It just is not that big of a leap.' but thats the point folk here believe its not a leap forward at all, just another cam..

Remember the flag in the wind comment hehe, you can be provocative sometimes without realising it!
 
Stevet said:
Looks good to me...
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And that’s a very valid point. Also below your response Matthew says pretty much the same thing. Now if you two guys aren’t seeing it, Id go as far to say not one lay person will see it either. So does it really matter at all? That’s the question the buyers need to decide. Its pretty much the same for any rolling shutter quirk I have seen from the EX, who would notice anyway? The only one that really stands out even to the lay person, is the light flash that gets pretty funky.

Id also suggest EX1 shooters to watch your detail levels in some shots to avoid moire.


And that’s it from me on the EX1 for good.
 
If you ask me people pointing out everything about this camera, including it's "flaws" early on in the game will help the camera in the long run. That way people will know what they are buying before they buy. Rather than a bunch of people buying up the camera with nothing other than it's the best ever... then, all of a sudden, rolling shutter issues start popping up, or vignetting at certain focal lengths, or apparent loss of sharpness on movement, or a tapeless workflow that is not exactly the same as another one someone may have been used to... If people who are looking to buy now and in the months ahead are aware of these things, then they are buying informed and will not be pissed off by some surprises, b/c they will already no what to expect for the most part. If these things don't get out (about any camera), then people buy a camera and the sh*t hits the fan when a bunch of people all at once start screaming and yelling about things that they didn't know to expect going in.

There are people that are too sensitive on both sides of the camp. Comments like "people just can't accept that this camera might actually be good" is really stretching it, and doing more to bait further needless banter, rather than productive discussion. And, really... it's playing to the minority I think. You may see it as the majority. I see it as the minority. And Noel's need to walk such a fine line and over state his case that it is just his opinion, and don't attack him, and then still be basically attacked... That's just silly. First of all that it's Noel's opinion that you are trying to trivialize by suggesting he doesn't know what he's looking at, or is being influenced by his preference towards a particular camera... Rubbish.

And, all the examples from the other side of the camp apply too. I'm not trying to make this a one sided deal here. I'm just stating the recent examples I saw in going through the last couple of pages of this thread.

I (and a lot of other people) so hope that this kind of stuff can be over with already, but I guess it never ends. Will always be. Has been since before this cam, and will be long after it, I guess.... So, as you were, I guess. For the record, if you are forming hard line impressions in your mind about someone who does not share your opinions as a "fanboy" or "stupid", or just "uninformed", etc, you are likely just as guilty and just as UN-level headed in your approach to the discussion as well. Whether you actually say those things out loud on the boards, or you think them and they influence your response. Look in the mirror. Ignore the rubbish. Reinforce productive conversation.

Just my two cents in my roundabout way of trying to make a point.

Later,
Jason
 
Jason,

All excellent points.

But when the flaws that people attribute to the EX1 are pure fiction, I will always refute it. I would do the same if anyone spouted fictions about the HVX, the RED, the Arricam or any other camera I have owned and/or used and feel I have the authority to speak about.

There is no evidence that the EX1 softens, even apparently, with panning, beyond what is attributable to motion blur. In fact I have posted evidence to the contrary and yet that canard lives on.

When people notice optical distortions that have existed since the advent of the camera obscura and attibute them solely to the EX1, I'll point that out.

Arguments such as "looks like video" and something's "not quite right" are pointless, especially when they come from people who admit they have never even touched the camera.

As one of they few people on this forum who possess the camera (and have owned an HVX as well), I would hope some of my points have some merit beyond ego satisfaction, which is a constant accusation from the less mature here.

I have no idea why people want to fictionalize about the EX1, or any other camera. It's truly bizarre. But it happens a lot here.
 
Brilliant, Matthew. Perfect.

I am really liking the EX1. I am shooting a lot with it. I will give my review in a week or so.

I would hope that people would not talk about the camera before testing it out. That seems unfair and pointless.
 
Cute, filmaddict.

Matthew, the truth will out. That's what we're here for. What I don't get is the rabid lionizing people do about a product, pretending "oh, the long-GOP on THIS product is perfect" or "of course, the OTHER cameras have rolling shutters but THIS ONE won't show ANY problems" or whatever. How does that help anyone? Does it just make someone feel better if they can talk someone else into making the same decision they did?

I got accused of all sorts of things on another board for daring to suggest that the EX1 has a rolling shutter, and that it will have consequences. We had a guy on this board post a rolling shutter image from an EX1, and people called him a liar, said his footage was a fake, claimed it was from an HV20, all sorts of nonsense. Now, a couple of weeks later, guess what? Footage is coming in, people are demonstrating the effect. It exists. It's there. It happens. It happens exactly as it was predicted, and exactly as it was demonstrated.

So now that people know it exists, they're prepared to act. Now that you recognize it, you're empowered to make an informed decision -- or, you can educate yourself on how to work around it. But at least you know.

Pretending the issues don't exist doesn't help anyone. Fanboyism doesn't help anyone. Fictionalizing about one product or another doesn't help anyone. The only thing that helps is to get to the bottom of what is, or what isn't, and spelling it out.

Sooner or later I'll get to the bottom of whatever the res loss issue is, or even if it is an issue to even be concerned about. And I'll also look into the motion oddness that Noel reported, that I also have questioned (not publicly, because I'll just get barbecued if I say it, but I definitely noticed it and I didn't want to speak out until I could put a name to it).

I'll also find out what the limits are of the XDCAM-EX codec. People chanting "it's so much better, blah blah" is pointless until we test it and find out what its limits are. All this stuff will come out, sooner or later.

Here's what I object to: people who don't know what they're talking about, telling people that there's nothing to be concerned about. If someone doesn't know what they're talking about, they should keep quiet, yes. But if someone does know what they're talking about, to have a bunch of people trying to shout them down does a grave disservice to the end users. All this stuff is going to come out sooner or later. Frankly, I think the users are better served if it comes out sooner. I'd much rather be the guy discovering the limits of the camcorder, than have one of the users discover the limits when they're on a paying job!

I'll only post actual results when I know what they are, and I'll post the procedures and methodologies so that anyone can freely duplicate those results. If called upon to speculate, I'll speculate -- but I'll also let it be known that I'm speculating. If there's an actual issue, I'll spell out what the issue is and how it comes about. I was probably the second guy to wave the "rolling shutter alert"; Russ Andersson was the first, and we stood out there alone for quite a while. But at least now the footage is hitting and people are seeing what it does. They are now informed, and can make an educated decision on whether they want to buy it or not, knowing full well the effects that it can have and under what types of circumstances those effects can arise.

I will continue to do that, and if it becomes an "inconvenient truth" for some or others, well, too bad. Inconvenient or not, truth is truth and that's what we want to see here. Not fanboyism, not uninformed speculation, but actual reports.
 
Excellent posts, Jason and Barry.
In the end, we all want to be as informed as possible on any camera or product we buy. Both pros and cons.
 
I now have 8 pages to catch up on since I was last in here, but I'll make two comments for now:

Jason Ramsey said:
For the record, if you are forming hard line impressions in your mind about someone who does not share your opinions as a "fanboy" or "stupid", or just "uninformed", etc, you are likely just as guilty and just as UN-level headed in your approach to the discussion as well.
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I dont have either camera but am in the market for one of these two cameras. I have no opinion either way as I have used neither, but I can EASILY pick out the fanbois.


Matthew77 said:
Arguments such as "looks like video" and something's "not quite right" are pointless, especially when they come from people who admit they have never even touched the camera.
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Are you MAD? I cant possibly determine if something looks like video or not quite right if I have never touched the camera?

What are you talking about?


People are insane. They are merely cameras. Tools. Detach yourselves for two seconds and dont get so defensive.

And this is precisely why I asked Jason his opinion at the beginning of the thread. He is obviously someone that has looked at both sides but doesnt have a freshly spent $7000 investment to defend.

"what about his HVX investment?" you say? I am sure that Jason is at the point where he needs to start looking at the next camera up and no longer defend and old investment. I may be wrong, but judging by the conversation, I dont think so.

(And somehow I will end up an HVX fanboi even though I have no HVX.)
 
Barry,

While I respect most everything you do here, I do think your EX1 review was sensational and catered to a certain audience of those who would, for whatever bizarre reason, relish in the failure of the EX1. The tone was strangely defensive. And it needn't have been.

I point to this paragraph in particular:

"So the first thing I looked at was sharpness. And oh yeah, the EX1 delivers on that. 800 observable lines of horizontal res on a Chroma Du Monde. Fantastic. Er, just don't move the camera. Move it, and you get a noticeable resolution drop, more than can be accounted for through simple motion blur. And it's not due to the codec either, you can see the effect on the live output and you can see it on a scope. Heck, you don't even need that -- you can see it right on the (as already acknowledged, excellent) LCD! Just turn on peaking (especially in yellow -- excellent feature, that peaking-in-yellow!) and point at a high-detail scene; take it outside, put it on wide-angle and point at some trees. You should see a whole lotta yellow, because the peaking is showing all the sharp high-frequency detail, right? Now pan, and -- whoops? Where'd all the yellow go? You'll notice the peaking disappears whenever you move, and comes back when you stop. Well, so does your hyper-sharp resolution -- it all disappears whenever you move."

In subsequent posts you tempered this observation with at least some doubt, but your original post still has people convinced that this is absolutely the case.

I am just matthew77, but you are Barry Green. Your words carry a lot of weight on these forums and, even though you've been reasonably responsible with them, your conjecture on the EX1 has set off a strange chain reaction of fictionalization that needs to be refuted, lest it become fact. When you ultimately conclude that, even if there is some motion softening, it is not "a couple of hundred lines of res" it's going to be much harder to retract your original assertion.

You didn't respond to my rudimentary tests in which I attached a res chart to the camera and panned. This shows no softening whatsoever. Nor to my observation that peaking on the EX1 senses verticals and not horizontals, and that tilting has no effect of the peaking the way panning does, although it is motion just the same and should create the same softening.

Doesn't matter all that much to me in the big picture, but I am watching this forum develop its own set of truths, rather than the actual truth. I would think that this is something you, as a moderator here, would like to prevent.
 
I own both HVX200 and HPX555, I sold HVX200 once but came back after testing all of the similar cameras but Panasonic offered HPX555 (500 in U.S.) then I decided to choose P2HD for my primary format.

Being not as disciplined as camaraman as many of you here, I run into some difficulties with HVX200 under low light situation because of its light sensitivities and limited LCD resolution. Other frustration is that other cams started providing crisper pictures. I have no complaints on P2's price and the performance, once you own them, you don't worry as someone who is deciding to commit at this point because there's another option, SxS.

But let me just make it clear that, because of a couple of frustrations, I'm in market for better camera with more light sensitivities and better LCD, so I can shoot more things under dark situations.

According to what I heard previously, EX1 seemed to be providing that so I took it around a couple of days and shoot what I do usually.

When I was shooting with EX1, through its crisp LCD, I was so stunned and excited that a little cam can capture very distinctive images. I took it to Shibuya station at night and ease of setting up under dark situation was just amazing. Only one thing I noticed was some waving pattern in front of large screen panels on the building and I could not get rid of unless making the shutter speed to 1/96s. It looked okay on the LCD with 1/96 so I shot some with that setting.

Now I came back and monitor those clips with HD monitor and found out the vertical pulsing wave pattern was present even with 1/96. I even recognize the same pulsing on one of the cut provided by Phil Bloom, too. Also, anything with a lot of edges, as soon as I start to pan (even with careful panning because I was shooting 24p) I recognize sever flickering. I guess I could lessen the sharpness, so I shouldn't conclude as problem on the edge flickering, but at lease on the default setting, that is what it did.

Another thing I noticed was that I shot some clips in the car then what is possible with HVX and HPX wasn't too good on EX1. Under shaky situation, the picture distorts slightly and give you the impression as whole frame being not solid, not flat, and contoured upon vertical square shocks from the bumps.

As much as I really want EX1 to be good performer, because of these reasons, I can't make up my mind to purchase it. I bought HPX555 personally, but since my company's book keeper told me that the company should own it, so I'm getting the money back, so I have the money to buy it. Since it is SxS, so I don't have to buy any extra rig to bring the footage files to Mac because I own Mac Book Pro (by the way I reported SxS physically having problems mounting on MBP).

So by looking at all of the clips that I shot with EX1, I just can't convince myself to purchase one. It is too bad. Because after seeing its light sensitivity and the crispness of the still shot, it is stunning. Makes you think about HVX's weakness again, even though I'm in the position to freely buy anything, I can't reach to make a decision to buy EX1 at this point.

This is totally if you are in my boots, shooting BMX, skateboards and mountainbiking with a lot of handheld and onboard stuff. If you only shoot like Phil Bloom then EX1 might outperform other cams, but you notice there's hardly any panning there. So whe you are demanded to add some camera work then I don't know how much the picture si going to hold up, it didn't hold up how much I expected comparing to HVX.

I think I would buy EX1 if they had put 3CCD instead of CMOS. Then I would not have the pulsing wave nor picture going out of shape.

Now the magazine that I have the monthly column for years is going to have lab checking into the rolling shutter issue after looking at my report. They are brave. But they are rare one that follows the real journalism going, very very rare in Japan.
 
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