HVX Or EX1?....Or wait it out for SCARLET

I would say stay away from Scarlet until RED fixes/improve their workflow...Don;t get me wrong, the RED One is an awesome cam and I expect scarlet to be great too.... but the current state of the workflow will give you ulcers!...it's pretty buggy and pretty damn slow...
 
3xm, that was a very sensible answer......

it doesn't matter if the best camera in the world exists... if its workflow is terrible noone will want to use it.....
 
:3 However, even the RED Proxies stomp all over anything beneath it.

And you can use the Proxies pretty easily.

If you d on't need the raw, the Proxies are pretty much a win altogether.

Devils Advocate here.
 
All of these choices have BIG negatives are far as I am concerned.

EX1 with long GOP, but honestly, the footage still looks pretty good from what I've see. If you're not shooting high motion, it's a hell of a camera for the money.

HVX is great, but the P2 cards.. UGH.

Scarlet could be awesome. Emphasis on COULD BE. And what is the shipping wait going to be with half the Red community already talking about pre-orders.

If I HAD to choose, I'd wait until after NAB and probably would go with the Scarlet or the Sony. Sony will fix the EX1. This is not some joke camera. It wears the CineAlta name and they aren't going to just let that be an issue. Scarlet will be evolving, but it has a great pedigree and a very forward thinking and responsive company behind it.

The HVX is a bit long in the tooth. I was hoping to hear that the refresh would bring compact flash or something other than these darn P2 cards, but sadly, no.

None are or will be bad cameras, and all will produce images better than most people who buy them will be able to coax out of them.
 
TimurCivan said:
3xm, that was a very sensible answer......

it doesn't matter if the best camera in the world exists... if its workflow is terrible noone will want to use it.....
Click to expand...

Interesting reply.

Tell me about the P2 workflow... How about if you're on a Mac? Which editors support DVCPROHD?

There are no perfect solutions... And when it comes to it, I'll take the camera with the best acquisition. Workflow is a problem solvable down the road. If the camera can't record the images, the workflow won't matter.
 
Kholi said:
:3 However, even the RED Proxies stomp all over anything beneath it.

And you can use the Proxies pretty easily.
Click to expand...
Er, someday maybe, but not yet. The proxies don't work in Windows at all. And on the Mac, only the 2:1 aspect ratio works; if you shoot in 16:9 the proxies don't work.
 
PerroneFord said:
Tell me about the P2 workflow...
Click to expand...
Shoot footage. Plug the card in. Edit.

No decks, no capturing, no logging, no transferring, no rewrapping, no debayering, no anything. Plug in the card, and edit up to six streams of HD instantly. I do it daily.

How about if you're on a Mac? Which editors support DVCPROHD?
Click to expand...
All of them. CS3 and Avid support it better than FCP does, but they all support it.

On Windows, they all support it very well. EDIUS and Premiere Pro CS3 have the best integration, but it's natively and well supported by Avid, SpeedEdit, even Liquid.
 
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PerroneFord said:
I was hoping to hear that the refresh would bring compact flash or something other than these darn P2 cards, but sadly, no.
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You mean those "darn" P2 cards that have captured 80% of the broadcast HD market? :) No, Panasonic won't be abandoning that any time soon.

Now, if you want inexpensive SD memory recording, the new 150 looks like an HVX that records straight to off-the-shelf $10 SD memory cards, so maybe that's more to your liking?
 
No, I'd like HD recording onto the memory cards.

Those "DARN" P2 cards cost a small FORTUNE if you want to have 2 and a backup. You mentioned that the P2 workflow is "Shoot the footage, plug the card in". Plug it into what? I don't edit on a laptop. How do I read my P2 on my desktop?

I'm not trying to be funny, I really don't know.

[Edit]

Nevermind, just found it. Doesn't get around the cost factor, but at least I can see the workflow now.
 
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They're not exactly a "fortune"; they're about twice as expensive as compactflash (on a per-gigabyte basis). Compared to Red's compactflash, they're priced the same per minute of recording (recognizing, of course, that DVCPRO-HD isn't 4K obviously). But as a practical matter for shooting, if you're talking about shooting four minutes, a Red 8GB card will shoot 4 minutes and costs $200, so that's $50 per minute. A 16GB P2 card costs $850 and gives you 17 minutes, so that's $50 per minute. The cost per minute is the same (even though the footage recorded on those cards is not). So I contend that it's not exactly a "fortune." For the cost of a tripod for the Red, you could buy four 64GB cards and never have to swap or offload.

Point I'm making is that this all came up because of workflow questions. The P2 workflow is now humming like a finely-tuned engine, it's been in the field for almost four years, the kinks are worked out, and yes on a laptop or desktop you can edit instantly multiple streams of HD. If you want to see how a tapeless workflow should work, P2 is it. The problems that are encountered nowadays are almost exclusively trackable to user error.

Red's workflow is nowhere near that stage yet, as 3XM was pointing out. And for Windows users it's much less developed (unless you've got the scratch to buy Assimilate's "Scratch"). Someday Red'll get there, but as of now the workflow is the least-developed portion of the entire product. Big changes are supposed to be announced soon though.

As for recording HD onto memory cards, the inexpensive option is AVC-HD. There you can get an hour of 1080p footage on a $25 card (at today's prices; six months from now that card might be $15 and at that point it'd rival HDV tape!)
 
I went tapeless about 18 months ago with a Firestore. In many ways I prefer that to P2, but not to CF.

I am all over this idea of AVCHD (in full data rate) to memory cards. That is what I was hoping for with the new HVX. Or at least give the option of it for those who'd like to bypass P2.

You are right that Red's workflow isn't there yet, and we all know that. But neither is the camera, and I think buyers understand they are in a beta cycle.

Most of my work is long form. So I need the 2hr - 6hr capabilities. In P2, I'd be in real trouble. The Firestore solves the problem and I can deal with it's noise. It's just not an issue in my setting.

Different solutions for different needs...

Barry_Green said:
They're not exactly a "fortune"; they're about twice as expensive as compactflash (on a per-gigabyte basis). Compared to Red's compactflash, they're priced the same per minute of recording (recognizing, of course, that DVCPRO-HD isn't 4K obviously). But as a practical matter for shooting, if you're talking about shooting four minutes, a Red 8GB card will shoot 4 minutes and costs $200, so that's $50 per minute. A 16GB P2 card costs $850 and gives you 17 minutes, so that's $50 per minute. The cost per minute is the same (even though the footage recorded on those cards is not). So I contend that it's not exactly a "fortune." For the cost of a tripod for the Red, you could buy four 64GB cards and never have to swap or offload.

Point I'm making is that this all came up because of workflow questions. The P2 workflow is now humming like a finely-tuned engine, it's been in the field for almost four years, the kinks are worked out, and yes on a laptop or desktop you can edit instantly multiple streams of HD. If you want to see how a tapeless workflow should work, P2 is it. The problems that are encountered nowadays are almost exclusively trackable to user error.

Red's workflow is nowhere near that stage yet, as 3XM was pointing out. And for Windows users it's much less developed (unless you've got the scratch to buy Assimilate's "Scratch"). Someday Red'll get there, but as of now the workflow is the least-developed portion of the entire product. Big changes are supposed to be announced soon though.

As for recording HD onto memory cards, the inexpensive option is AVC-HD. There you can get an hour of 1080p footage on a $25 card (at today's prices; six months from now that card might be $15 and at that point it'd rival HDV tape!)
Click to expand...
 
Perrone, if you think the P2 workflow is a pain in the butt wait til you start working with RED....you will miss the ease of P2/MXF. Barry and I are both talking from experience here, as we both have RED cameras. Shoot beautiful images one day and love the camera....then start cursing the next day as you start "trying" to output and edit... ;-)
 
Here's the thing

Here's the thing

I've owned a DVX100, DVX100A and I've shot quite a few commercials with the HVX200. I also just bought a Sony EX1.

The truth is content is still king. There are countless threads arguing about the merits of each camera. Focus chart tests and what not. It amuses me when people spend more time testing their cam against charts instead of just going out and shooting with it. Practice your lighting and composition and I guarantee you'll shoot better (more compelling) stuff with a 1 CCD chip camera than someone with less skills with their RED. Watch the movie "The Celebration". It was shot with a 1 CCD chip cam with practical lighting. It was one of the best movies I've ever seen.

The HVX200 and the Sony EX1 are both great cameras. The reason I went with the Sony is that I liked the sharpness and higher res. I usually use a film lens adapter with the HVX200 and wasn't fond of the grain and milky quality of the footage.

The bottom line is I'd much rather be a good cinematographer/director with lousy equipment than be a so-so artist with a 4K cam that makes coffee. Keep this in mind: Numbers and features are for marketing people to sell their wares, ideas are for artists to sell theirs.

Apparently, you just bought an HVX200. Great choice. Now shoot something cool with it.
 
Tell me a system that can spend 20 minutes in the water and still work...

I just had a dunking in the Colorado River a few weeks back and floated about 1/2 mile down stream holding the camera in the air... some water did get in and the viewfinder has a stain on in now...

After 2 days of drying out the camera it came back to life and has been working fine... just the lens focusing and zoom is a bit gritty...

The footage on the cards was fine and downloaded no problems...

I also had a 8 gig card in my pocket that was in the drink the whole time... the card works fine...

I don't know of any other format that can take such treatment...

Pretty robust I reckon...

Cheers

LeZ

www.les.herstik.com
 
Got to love threads that call the HVX, long in the tooth. This cam still has a life and will continue to. I'ts also been an earner for a lot longer than the EX1 and quite franky I don't think that an EX would have lasted as well as my HVX. I got to mess with one the other day and it just seems plastic and like it won't last. My HVX has been to the bottom of lakes, to the skys, backpacked around the FL wilderness... strapped to skateboards, bikes, motorcycles and it just keeps on ticking. I remember a while back about that Marine Doc where it was even blew up.. pretty much and kept on ticking.


In 2 years, with the lacking build quality of the EX, let's see if it can get the honor of being called long in the tooth. As far as I'm concerned that's a good thing, and look at the DVX, people are still using and buying that. Shoot, people are still using an XL1 and I had bought that camera back in 99... now that's long in the tooth....

Post hassels are a real deal and if it sucks to edit, then it just sucks. I experienced that with the HV20. Shoots great footage for a cheap camera, but man it sucks to edit so that just kind of sours the whole thing.

P2 is also not that expensive compared to shooting tape or film. Franky I'd reather have 2 x 32 gig cards than the Firestore... But either way, it's a great time to be a filmmaker. The market is coming to the indi guys, and you don't have to spend 150K to get a good cam
 
menchifus said:
I've owned a DVX100, DVX100A and I've shot quite a few commercials with the HVX200. I also just bought a Sony EX1.

The truth is content is still king. There are countless threads arguing about the merits of each camera. Focus chart tests and what not. It amuses me when people spend more time testing their cam against charts instead of just going out and shooting with it. Practice your lighting and composition and I guarantee you'll shoot better (more compelling) stuff with a 1 CCD chip camera than someone with less skills with their RED. Watch the movie "The Celebration". It was shot with a 1 CCD chip cam with practical lighting. It was one of the best movies I've ever seen.

The HVX200 and the Sony EX1 are both great cameras. The reason I went with the Sony is that I liked the sharpness and higher res. I usually use a film lens adapter with the HVX200 and wasn't fond of the grain and milky quality of the footage.

The bottom line is I'd much rather be a good cinematographer/director with lousy equipment than be a so-so artist with a 4K cam that makes coffee. Keep this in mind: Numbers and features are for marketing people to sell their wares, ideas are for artists to sell theirs.

Apparently, you just bought an HVX200. Great choice. Now shoot something cool with it.
Click to expand...

Ditto. Either camera (HVX or EX-1) will give you great HD footage if properly used. But your content/story will define how successful your product will be.
It's NOT about the camera.

I work with docs and I'm tried, and happy, to see very successful movies shot with miniDV consumer camcorders doing much better that films shot with Super16mm transferred to HD etc...
Same goes for any other genre.

Get your tools and focus on your creativity and skills.
 
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