HVX and Canon

[SPZ]

Very cool, Evinsky. I hope the shoot goes well.

Understand, I never said MOST every client would question the HVX. I only said there are a lot of ignorant producers that might wonder about the professionalism of the camera because of the form factor. I'm talking people used to Beta SP, DVCAM, etc...not necessarily nationally known ad agencys.

I take it they are expecting a dead-on film look, right? I'm sure the HVX in the right hands can pull that off easily.

Elton, thanks for your views. Very helpful for an undecided dvx owner looking to step up to hd.

You said you own the dvx. Are you not happy with it? Do you think the xl2 was better? I agree with the DVX instant gratification comment- this was essential on my purchase, and what made me film hours and hours of stuff that probably I wouldn't film with the xl 2. However, I believe the same look can be obtainable in post. Nowadays, I do a lot more " planned and scripted" shooting, so immediate gratification is not that important. Do you find the HVX footage not as " Broadcast" as the H1 (as in " this looks like a very big budget comercial" Broadcast?I know this is subjective but i'm merely talking in the immediate wow factor- with cc included, and on HDV, not sdi- I cannot afford such system!)

 

[evinsky]

Shoot went fantastic, client couldn't believe the production value I was able to bring for thier budget. I rented the 17" Pany LCD and the Agency and clients were drooling over the color and sharpness. And that was just 720.

This is one earth-shattering product.

I even shot 60FPS and showed them the clip at 30 instant slow-mo and they just ate it up.

More tomorrow.

 

[SPZ]

Shoot went fantastic, client couldn't believe the production value I was able to bring for thier budget. I rented the 17" Pany LCD and the Agency and clients were drooling over the color and sharpness. And that was just 720.

This is one earth-shattering product.

I even shot 60FPS and showed them the clip at 30 instant slow-mo and they just ate it up.

More tomorrow.

Give us more please! You shot 720p right? Also please post your progress on the editing front (how the footage survives grading, etc.) Thanks!

 

[Elton]

You said you own the dvx. Are you not happy with it? Do you think the xl2 was better?

I love the dvx and the XL2. I didn't bite on the XL2 because I thought it was little late to the game (Canon's modus operandi) and my tea leaf readings were indicating they might go hd soon. I'm REALLY glad I waited! I was dearly tempted with the XL2 because I thought it made fantastic 16x9 24p SD (maybe with a little massaging), but HDV and the rumors of Pany's alternative had already emerged and it put me in a holding pattern.

I think the XL2 was technically better for a number of reasons, but it wasn't enough to abandon the DVX...not with changes on the horizon.

I agree with the DVX instant gratification comment- this was essential on my purchase, and what made me film hours and hours of stuff that probably I wouldn't film with the xl 2. However, I believe the same look can be obtainable in post.

Agreed. The DVX could be more of a fun goofin' around camera, and you could get away with taking it places where the XL2 would get you noticed. (e.g. Disneyland or sporting events)

Nowadays, I do a lot more " planned and scripted" shooting, so immediate gratification is not that important. Do you find the HVX footage not as " Broadcast" as the H1 (as in " this looks like a very big budget comercial" Broadcast?I know this is subjective but i'm merely talking in the immediate wow factor- with cc included, and on HDV, not sdi- I cannot afford such system!)

Oh, the HVX is definitely just as "broadcast" as far as the picture goes. Either camera can produce footage that belies it's thrifty origins. The HVX, just like the DVX, is probably more instantly warm and filmic...but that's if you're relatively new to the camera and haven't learned how to tweak it.

I believe it's reasonable and maybe a tad bit simplistic to compare these cameras to their target big boy's camera:

HVX is a mini-Varicam. It has so many of the same filmmaking features and produces images that are very similar. It's got a very pleasing, progressive look. Where I think it falls a little short is in the 1080i/p realm. It's pretty obvious it's a little undersampled at 1080. 720p is its real strength, and you get all the benefits of the creative options, plus a lot more recording time to P2 if you shoot 24pN.

H1 is like a mini-HDCAM. I've worked with the format and I know the look very well. The H1 gets so much closer to that kind of picture than even the Z1. It has a very sharp, very detailed look in 1080i/p (I like the look of 24F). I think the camera ships "broadcast flat", in a manner of speaking. It's cine-gammas are perhaps a bit more conservative than the HVX, but you can really dial-in a look once you're familiar with the custom set-ups, and save the settings to an SD card. It's actually pretty slick.

I think where the H1 shines is it's resolution and signal processing. It's got an unbelievably detailed image...all of which can be dialed up or down in camera or in post. I personally feel 24F is very nice, and might make the best film-out. However Canon achieves the image in that mode, it's a nice look and can be just as cinematic as the next camera. I love it's low-light capability, and it's definitely good to know you can stick a manual lens on it if the 20x doesn't suit you. It's modular, and there are lots of advantages to that.

If you ever have the need for an even better image, it's also nice to know you can tap the SDI and do with it what you will. Most DIY indies would never do this...but hey, it's an option!

I think most people who frequent this site are totally sold on the HVX, and that's fine. I want one too...but I have different priorities and I was more impressed by the H1 for different reasons. P2 at current capacities just wouldn't work for me. I need more recording time. It's really meant for narrative filmmaking at this juncture. Things will be much more interesting when the Cine porter ships. But again, getting decent recording lengths with this camera also bumps it's price back up to the H1's range.

It's all about what you really want, and what compromises you're willing to live with.

Here are a few SLC city scape shots I took with the H1 the other night:

www.homepage.mac.com/mrbarlowelton

 

[Danilo Del Tufo]

I've seen them! They're are gorgeous, I'm worried about people that don't see the amazing quality of Xl H1, often I feel like a stupid to be stunned again and again with Xl H1's footage!

Elton at how much speed hdv codec show problems when panning?

Do you remember if guerilla adapter (I'm sure you know it) will be compatible with XlH1? Because it has removable lens, it must have a sort of intermediate lens to works proprely with guerilla, right?
Have you tried to make some slowmo footage from Xl H1, does it works? You must shoot in 60i and then make *magic tricks* to make a good slowmo?

Many thanks,

Cheers

 

[Elton]

Elton at how much speed hdv codec show problems when panning?

Do you remember if guerilla adapter (I'm sure you know it) will be compatible with XlH1? Because it has removable lens, it must have a sort of intermediate lens to works proprely with guerilla, right?
Have you tried to make some slowmo footage from Xl H1, does it works? You must shoot in 60i and then make *magic tricks* to make a good slowmo?

Many thanks,

Cheers

Boy, even whip pans have a natural blur to them. I don't think panning is a problem at all. It's more if you have extremely small objects all moving rapidly in different directions where--in theory--the MPEG2 can get stressed and break up...but I've yet to see anything that bothers me. If you absolutely had to have no motion artifacts whatsoever you can tap the SDI. Sure, it might be cumbersome, but it'll do the trick.
Rent a 1200a DVCPROHD deck for specific scenes, or consider a Wafian or even a tethered computer. All that said, I think HDV is just fine. Not perfect, but perfectly acceptable.

I don't know much about the alternative adapters, save for the mini35. I'll be doing some research in this dept., so I'll report back when I know a little more.

I'm going to try some slo-mo from the Nattress standards converter and see how 60i converts to 60p, and then conforming to 24p playback. Graeme told me it should look "bloody good". He's a guy you can place a lot of confidence in.

The thought plickens...

 

[joelnet]

Do you remember if guerilla adapter (I'm sure you know it) will be compatible with XlH1? Because it has removable lens, it must have a sort of intermediate lens to works proprely with guerilla, right?

No - the G35 goes in the front of the stock Canon lens. It doesn't replace the lens and use a relay like the Mini35 does.

 

[Danilo Del Tufo]

No - the G35 goes in the front of the stock Canon lens. It doesn't replace the lens and use a relay like the Mini35 does.

But the mini35 (p+s technick) could be only installed removing the original lens of XlH1 I'm pretty sure of it. It's for it that the old Canon Xl2 had more advantages on Dvx100, when it's attached to mini35.
I remember it was so.

Why the G35 can not be attached directly to the body of Xl H1? It's so hard make this? I believe it will have advantage if it's attached on the body and not on the lens, considering some purple frigging that Canon lens made on some test.

 

[Danilo Del Tufo]

It's more if you have extremely small objects all moving rapidly in different directions where--in theory--the MPEG2 can get stressed and break up...

Can you do some test with some jumpin' little balls? Ya know, some jumping little balls that some toy-store sell in package with various colours.
This test could be very very interesting!

I don't know much about the alternative adapters, save for the mini35. I'll be doing some research in this dept., so I'll report back when I know a little more.

I've seen footage from Guerilla adapter and it seems more good than p+s technick, my mind is totally blown away with this hyper-beautiful footage shot with the adapter :http://personales.ya.com/elfabrica/test.similo.mov

I've seen also more footage from guerilla adapter and believe me, they're incredible. If you want I can give you other links.

I'm going to try some slo-mo from the Nattress standards converter and see how 60i converts to 60p, and then conforming to 24p playback. Graeme told me it should look "bloody good". He's a guy you can place a lot of confidence in.

I hope to see this footage soon, because one of the advantages of Panasonic camera that drives me crazy is that 60p footage! It's stunning


Very very thanks to help me with your knowledge

Cheers

 

[Elton]

I'll do what I can Danilo, but only here and there. Right now I'm testing the Kona card with HDV. So many things to try and so little time.

 

[Danilo Del Tufo]

I'll do what I can Danilo, but only here and there. Right now I'm testing the Kona card with HDV. So many things to try and so little time.

I'm very grateful to you, don't worry and make your experiments with calm, considering that here in Italy (and in Europe) we're still waitin' for Hvx200 pal and sure it will be a long waiting. :embarasse

 

[SPZ]

Elton, thank you for your very perceptive opinion and take on things. About the Kona card you are testing, I presume its the LH: Does it sees 24f footage and can you edit it?