HVX acceptable for HD broadcast? network rejection issues...

Do what everyone else does and lie. If it's a good show they're not going to care what it was shot on. The specs are just there to keep the riffraff away.

The requirements are made by upper management (who haven't been behind a camera in twenty years) on the advice of manufacturers (usually Sony), and are uniformly ignored by the engineering staff.

I've worked on a number of large-budget Discovery and network shows, and they all use cheap consumer HD cameras (mind you, I work overseas).

As one of the shooters put it, as soon as it goes through editing and post, nobody can tell what the original format was.
 
That's why this is such a joke.

By the time that signal comes out of post, goes over satellite to the local cable operator, and goes out over ANALOG cable in many instances, or highly compressed DBS, and onto the 75% of SD televisions out there, you're gong to tell Varicam originated footage from HVX DVCProHD?

Yea right.


And lets not even talk about film. Much of which is scanned at 2k and the release prints 3-4 generations down, are often AWFUL.
 
One factor that is usually ignored in these threads are the conditions your show is acquired under.

If you go out and shoot a show, if they like it enough, they will buy it, regardless of what it was shot on.

OTOH, If you are commissioned for a show or series, you MUST contractually and legally abide by their rules, which will be stated in their contract. If you sign a contract, then violate the terms of the contract, they are within their rights to terminate their relationship with you. I own an HVX and have shot a lot of great footage with it but would I be shortsighted enough to think that "the man" is keeping me down by making me shoot with an expensive camera? No. It's their money, their network and their rules. If you don't like their rules, don't work with them, it's that simple.

Most experienced editors and producers probably could tell at least if the show was shot on a 1/3" vs. 2/3" camera. If you watched, "Feasting on Asphalt" on Food Network, it was shot all on HVX-200s and lipstick cams, looked fine. But Discovery, Nat Geo and their ilk are more picky obviously and they can be.

While I agree that at the consumer end, the signal often looks bad, a network or cable outlet can't just throw up their hands and abandon all tech specs. Remember, just like web video, GIGO. If it looks that bad with good signal input, imagine how bad it would look if they just threw up their hands and relaxed their standards. At the consumer end, it would go from bad to unwatchable.

My .02,

Dan
 
No, it's not about that. If you sign a contract to shoot at a particular level, then shoot at that level. I see nothing wrong in that.

But, it wasn't all THAT long ago that people were talking about film-outs from the DVX. Movies like Iraq in Fragments shot entirely on a DVX and playing in theatres. Now, we see people like Abrams putting HVX footage into a 10-ten Box office movie, and we're debating because some jokers don't think it's good enough for TV? Come on... are they serious?

I remember when MTV and Food Network were getting footage from DVXs and PD150s. And now, a camera that can lay down 4 times the data and shoot 1080p suddenly can't supported?

If Hollywood can put 2k on the silver screen every week, then the Discovery channel can live with DVCProHD and 1080p out of the HVX. Sorry, I don't buy the snobbery.
 
PerroneFord said:
Sorry, I don't buy the snobbery.
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It is not up to you to "buy the snobbery" :P
They don't care, and they still make the rules...

Anwyay - this thread has been very helpful - thanks a lot guys!

I think what I have gained from it is confirming what I initially thought:

1) If individually producing a show, do the best you can with what you have (HVX) and if they like it, they'll take it regardless of "specs"...

2) If contracted to shoot a show that they are paying for - shoot on what they tell you to; anything less is fraud.

3) thems the breaks.
 
Well first...

That HVX had nearly three hours on the head. The Viper and the CineAlta's Flagship the Sony F23. They started with the Viper but the F23 did better under the sodium vapor lights. :)

So that HVX didn't go anywhere really. But it was on set...

And if you like breaking contracts - fine. But fact of the matter is cameras do make a difference. We were using an F900 on a shoot for A&E. DP wouldn't use anything less, and that's what they had to use for the shoot.
 
what about shooting on a sony hi8 handycam, upresing it, dubbing it to hdcam and giving it to them.

or what about taking the gigs that are happy with the hvx, the indi film, industrial, new, and many more, and let those who want more, go to those who have more.

its all about giving people what they want/payfor, not giving then what you want them to want lol. I think its good, keeps standards hi, and makes us work that much harder to make our little camera shine.

Jason
 
Your deliverables have to be to whatever specification a particular network mandates. HDTheater and DCI nets have their own specification. HDCam and D5 are common.

Pre-negotiation over acquisition format is key if you're trying to have a show commissioned. If it is a spec work, then you can shoot whatever you want. Regardless of how you acquire, deliverables format will still be specified by the net.

Most HD networks allow a mix of formats / codecs. As was stated above, this is usually <30% against the 2/3" HD cameras like VariCam and [real] CineAlta.

I did a show last year which was entirely on XDCamHD (1/2" HDV ~35Mbps) for TLC/TLCHD. The original deliverables specification was SD... yeah. So, each deal is different and it is up to the producer and network to hammer out the details.

e
 
Howabout I speak from experience:

We used a Z1U on a show called "The Inside" for POV footage. Fox. No problems.
My friends used HVX200s as crash cam's for the new Knight Rider. NBC. No problems.

I worked for Ghost Whisperer for about 2 years. Produced their web series using HVX200s with P+S Techniks. We ended up airing 4 spots in heavy rotation on CBS. No problems.

I've personally dealt with CBS a lot for DVD and broadcast standards and I will tell you, maybe in a dream world they have some hawkeyed format police man that watches every piece of footage and red flags sub par stuff... but fact is, all you have to abide by are NTSC broadcast standards. That is what they look for. A channel that is still SD, it's Digibeta making sure your color/luma are in spec. For HD stations, tack on HDCAM-SR with 5.1 on 1-thru 5 then Stereo on 7 and 8.

I mean, look at a show like Big Brother. It's a bunch of modified DV cams that stream in footage to a server. It's not even uncompressed, cause that would be way too much bandwidth. A lot of it is 4:1:1 DV, believe it or not.

I'm sure there are some cablers out there, particularly Discovery channel type stations, that are very focused on the look and quality of the image. My guess is if they are trying to enforce some kind of camera standard, what they are really doing is just trying to say - "hey, our stuff has to look great on this station."

So if they really like your stuff and want to make something happen, they'll be flexible and take it. If they like your content but feel like it needs to be shot better, they'll give you the money to reshoot it. If they turn you away for your camera, odds are that's a polite way of saying... this isn't what we want, thanks but no thanks.
 
the thing about all this is when you deliver a commercial to your local comcast (time warner, etc...) they ask for MONO audio. and you can HEAR it when they switch from local to national advertisers.

at least thats the norm here in houston.
 
wgzn said:
the thing about all this is when you deliver a commercial to your local comcast (time warner, etc...) they ask for MONO audio. and you can HEAR it when they switch from local to national advertisers.

at least thats the norm here in houston.
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Mono audio that they then compress the snot out of. It does always sound terrible. Frequently they get the video so out of spec it causes buzzing in the audio as well.
 
Do they really have to compress adverts more than regular programming? I don't see how that would help them overall.
 
one more thing to consider, if you say you're shooting on hd-cam, varicam, what ever, you have to budget for it, if you then shoot on the hvx, and you turn your work in as hdcam, then your two budgets do not lne up, some can make an imbeselment argument on this.

Jason
 
Jason Miller said:
one more thing to consider, if you say you're shooting on hd-cam, varicam, what ever, you have to budget for it, if you then shoot on the hvx, and you turn your work in as hdcam, then your two budgets do not lne up, some can make an imbeselment argument on this.

Jason
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I wouldn't do this if the network was involved in or had access to the budget.
In my case, I am talking about inde productions, so the budget is never any of the network's business...
 
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