HVX-200 streaming DVCproHD via FW400

Barra

Barra

Carbonite Member
I need a laptop for mobility as I travel a lot so can't consider the dual or quad G5.
Can anyone with experience (maybe from a DVexpo demo?) give me a clear, simple and definitive answer about the capture to laptop via firewire option -specifically to the Mac laptop pleeassee!!?

1. Will the HVX-200 streaming DVCproHD via FW400 (1394 output) capture through Final Cut Pro5 on the new Powerbook G4? - Specifically onto the new G4 Powerbook which can be upgraded to 7200 rpm drive (100gig) and 2gig of DDR2 SDRAM with ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 graphics processor/128MB of DDR SDRAM ?

2. Will the P2 card fit into this Powerbooks new PC card slot: the PC Card/CardBus slot accepts Type I and Type II PC Cards, and transfer through FCP5 (as P2 viewer/driver I think is only supported by Windows)?

Panasonics new brochure clearly states:
"Simple Solution
Using just an AG-HVX200 and a Laptop computer (PC or a Mac) you can record via the 1394 output to the Capture window of your NLE. You can record preview or edit."

However it does not specify that recording can be done like this in native DVCproHD highest quality streaming output.
Neither does it give details of laptop spec's required for this simple solution. I could presume that the new G4 laptop would therefore work as it's the best and that FCP5 would capture with this as its the best, but I'm always cautious, and neither Panasonic nor Apple can confirm to me that this will be possible.

Actually, I'm not really into all this technical bull****, I prefer to be out shooting and creating, and I think it's really incredible that neither Panasonic nor Apple employees whom I have spoken with and emailed about this - are unable to answer me. This is not new unreleased technology - DVCproHD and G4 - what the hell... unfortunately it's new to me but surely technical staff in the broadcast dept of Panasonic should know and so should top level Apple technical staff....holy cow!

My worry is that with Apple the MXF files have to be "ingested" and converted to Quicktimes - that this will prevent the continous capture of streaming DVCproHD at 1gig per minute due to the G4 power limitations ? - OR please someone tell me from experience that I will have plenty of power to capture streaming DVCproHD from HVX to the PowerBook.:undecided
 
Barra asked:
1. Will the HVX-200 streaming DVCproHD via FW400 (1394 output) capture through Final Cut Pro5 on the new Powerbook G4? - Specifically onto the new G4 Powerbook which can be upgraded to 7200 rpm drive (100gig) and 2gig of DDR2 SDRAM with ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 graphics processor/128MB of DDR SDRAM ?

This should work just fine.

2. Will the P2 card fit into this Powerbooks new PC card slot: the PC Card/CardBus slot accepts Type I and Type II PC Cards, and transfer through FCP5 (as P2 viewer/driver I think is only supported by Windows)?

Actually there is a driver that will be on the CD that comes with the HVX200 which will enable the PCMCIA slot to accept and mount like a hard drive the P2 card. This is one thing we did here.

>However it does not specify that recording can be done like this in native DVCproHD highest quality streaming output.

What else would it be? Of course it it is DVCPRO HD.

>Neither does it give details of laptop spec's required for this simple solution. I could presume that the new G4 laptop would therefore work as it's the best and that FCP5 would capture with this as its the best, but I'm always cautious, and neither Panasonic nor Apple can confirm to me that this will be possible.

Just make sure you have a fast drive, 7200 is perfect.

>Actually, I'm not really into all this technical bull****, I prefer to be out shooting and creating, and I think it's really incredible that neither Panasonic nor Apple employees whom I have spoken with and emailed about this - are unable to answer me. This is not new unreleased technology - DVCproHD and G4 - what the hell... unfortunately it's new to me but surely technical staff in the broadcast dept of Panasonic should know and so should top level Apple technical staf>f....holy cow!

And just who would that be? I can only say that you have not contacted me until about 4 minutes ago. Send me a private message with names please.

>My worry is that with Apple the MXF files have to be "ingested" and converted to Quicktimes -

The MXF wrapper is off of the P2 card. It does not go out of the 1394 port in a wrapper. It goes out looking just like the output of the AJ-HD1200 deck.


>that this will prevent the continous capture of streaming DVCproHD at 1gig per minute due to the G4 power limitations ? -

????? What power limitations?

> OR please someone tell me from experience that I will have plenty of power to capture streaming DVCproHD from HVX to the PowerBook.

It works just as if you were working in an edit suite, with an AJ-HD1200. The only caution is to upgrade the HDD to 7200rpm.

Best,

Jan
 
Thank you very very much Jan! I can now go ahead with all my equipment orders without worries - such a relief. You are indeed a STAR! And thank you for all your inventions and creations - it is a dream come true! Now we must compliment your efforts with great movies shot on the HVX200......
 
I edit uncompressed right now with a 17" powerbook, FCPro G-raid, Aja IO LA, and a Lacie FW-800 PCMCIA card .

I plan to shoot with the HVX, transfer the media over to the G-raid, and then import under File>import MXF in FCPro. Apple and Panasonic have worked VERY closely for just this kind of workflow and it will be a great solution!

Matt G
 
For clarification, it is my understanding that when capturing through firewire, Apple natively writes the captured data as a Quicktime .mov directly. No MXF wrapper or ingest/import issues when capturing the live streaming data.
 
There won't be any 25p (PAL) issues in FCP 5 will there Jan? I doubt we know yet do we...? Is FCP ready for the PAL framerates?

Many thanks.
 
PLEASE correct me if I am wrong in reading this thread, but is what is being said mean that if you have a newer lap tap w/editing system that you don't need a P2 card at all (assuming you are willing to 'stream' the info the camera's gathering to the lap top)?

Or would you need at least one P2 card to download the information at its highest quality? This point has always confussed me (and I think a lot of others...).

Thanks for any help, John.
 
"PLEASE correct me if I am wrong in reading this thread, but is what is being said mean that if you have a newer lap tap w/editing system that you don't need a P2 card at all (assuming you are willing to 'stream' the info the camera's gathering to the lap top)?"

This is correct.

"Or would you need at least one P2 card to download the information at its highest quality? This point has always confussed me (and I think a lot of others...)?"

No, the only unknown is the variable framerate, in other words the way FCP or other NLE will ingest the variable frame data into a particular time base.
 
Why so upset everyone?

Why so upset everyone?

evinsky said:
No, the only unknown is the variable framerate, in other words the way FCP or other NLE will ingest the variable frame data into a particular time base.
Click to expand...

So - why are people getting so upset about the P2 prices?

I can see why people who film "live" events like sports or docs might not want a lap top tied to the camera, but I was under the impression that most of us want the camera for narrative work...

If we really don't need a P2 card, well then, this camera just got a lot more attractive (and it was already pretty good looking).

Ideas? John
 
yes John,
This is probably what I am going to do for the beginning - I still think that the camera should be free for steadicam or roaming work
a firewire cable is only so long , but for the initial - getting to know the camera phase
I am thinking of this solution - until a firestore like solution comes out...
 
Since we only need 100mbit/sec or 12.5mb/sec at 1080p and only 100*24/60=40mbit=5mb/sec at 720p/special 24fps mode, we could use any superlight laptop or tablet pc with firewire and a bunch of cheap external usb2 2.5inch disks? That could mean 80gb at $100 for 106minutes and 265 minutes respectively:) Practically unlimited autonomy and quick backups/copies from one usb port to the next. The software could easily support streaming to two disks at the same time for backup although I doubt they would implement that. And we can probably mount an 1kg pc on a cheap DIY stabilisation system for storage and monitoring! Is DVCProHD streaming support positive?

What kind of monitoring does this connection provide? How much resolution and how responsive would that be?
 
evinsky said:
No, the only unknown is the variable framerate, in other words the way FCP or other NLE will ingest the variable frame data into a particular time base.
Click to expand...
That's not unknown, it's known -- it'll function exactly like the VariCam tapes as fed to FCP via the 1200A deck. Which means if you want variable frame rates, you'd use the Apple Frame Rate Converter utility. It's an established workflow that's been working for about a year, right?
 
Xenophon, if you find something, let us know. I've been thinking a small tablet PC could be kind of nifty, but I doubt there's any that would meet Avid or Canopus or FCP5 minimum requirements.
 
The advantage of the tablet pc is that it can function perfectly in "folded" form so it would balance and position a lot better than the typical open notebook. Some do not even include a keyboard in order to save weight and improve structure.

There are powerful tablet pcs but they usually are a kilo heavier,. Which could not be a big problem depending on the setup. The Acer TravelMate C200 is 2kilos (without optical drive) with 12inch XGA and can be a Pentium M 2.13 with 2gb ram and gigabit ethernet.

Streaming on HVX is supported in firewire AND usb2? What resolution is the monitor view? Is the latency ok? I have never done this on any camera.

If the streaming could work with something less powerful, perhaps we could use something like this:

http://www.motioncomputing.com/products/tablet_pc_le1600.asp

It is fast enough and XGA.

or even this

http://www.motioncomputing.com/products/tablet_pc_ls800.asp

which is only SVGA and will probably not work:)

And use cheap external usb2 disks of course.

A tablet pc costs about the same with a Firestore after all.
 
I love the talk along these lines...
I have a few bus powered 7200 drives ranging from 60 to 100 G's a piece

last night I did a test to make my mouth water... I threw my Apple 17"PB into a messenger bag
(I put a small roll of fabric at the top so it wouldn't close all the way and I could start and stop my NLE capture)
And I picked up my VX2000 on it's stabilization unit and walked around
and people let me tell you it felt FINE...

HVX200 & 'Unlimited' recording for 5500$...?
This seals the deal
I cannot believe it...I am waiting for the other shoe to drop...I will probably invest in P2 card later on when they get larger and cheaper
 
I would pay $3,000 for a Firestore that used 2.5inch disks on a cartridge. It would have to come with 10 cartridges that can be changed in 5 seconds of course:)

We don't even need 7200 drives. We are talking about very small rates. The cheapest 4200 disk disk can do 100mbits/sec in its entire surface if freshly (quick)formated and not fragmented.

I think P2 cards will not live enough in order to be cheap enough. Not many users need larger than 2gb SDs in their digital cameras and this will not change in a couple of years. And Panasonic P2 users are not enough to drive the prices down or increase production. Even if 4 or 8gb cards appear. The step from 1gb to 2gb took quite a long time. The industry will jump to hard disk solutions sooner or later.

A 2g SD is $100. 4 of them (8gb) is $400. How much is a P2 card? Panasonic is making about $1800 on a controller that probably costs $50. The same controller with 4 1gb SDs that cost less than $200 is $650-$200=$450. The same controller is sold for $450 and $1800 depending on what memory it comes with. I don't think anyone believes the high quality, individually selected SD card joke. It's just a way to make more money on interfaces, now that sales of consumables will decrease. I refuse to buy anything that has to do with the P2 joke. It's an insane idea. Slow, expensive, overpriced. Panasonic could just introduce a HDD module based on 2.5inch HDD instead of a dv tape drive. And sell the cartridges that mount the disks for $20 each or something. But they wouldn't do that as we know:)

Two of the HVX compatible Firestore units instead of 2 8gb P2s perhaps? I'd rather copy data in large ammounts and only if I have to. At least those should be upgradable with new cheap 2,5inch HDDs.
 
Xenophon said:
There are powerful tablet pcs but they usually are a kilo heavier,. Which could not be a big problem depending on the setup. The Acer TravelMate C200 is 2kilos (without optical drive) with 12inch XGA and can be a Pentium M 2.13 with 2gb ram and gigabit ethernet.
Click to expand...
12"? Yowza, that'd be huge for on-camera... but Pentium M 2.13 is probably plenty fast enough. Anybody make a good 7" model with XGA res?

Streaming on HVX is supported in firewire AND usb2?
Click to expand...
No, only firewire.
 
Many tablet pcs do not have firewire and XGA is 10.4" and larger.

Acer TravelMate C110 is 10.4" XGA with 1.2Ghz PM, 2gb and Firewire, at 1.45kg or about 1.7kg with an external usb2 disk.
 
I've been playing this concept around in my head of building a rig in such as way that I could have a small PC interface, say 5"-7" with a firewire cord running into a backpack which has the external hard drives.

Do we know whether or not the HVX will be able to tell the computer to begin recording? If a laptop could be remote controlled for record and stop, I could live with the built in viewfinder/LCD.

The dream setup in my mind would be a laptop in a backpack, with a 7" screen running on the new Longhorn Auxillary display technology that would provide an SD image with a touch screen, but be controlling the same laptop that you will edit with later in your pack.
 
Xenophon said:
I think P2 cards will not live enough in order to be cheap enough. ...The industry will jump to hard disk solutions sooner or later.
Click to expand...

I think the industry is jumping right past hard disk solutions.

You are only speaking to one aspect of storage - size. Storage also relates to battery life, response time and media durability. These areas are the weak links for hard drives.

I am no engineer, but imagine solid state storage must consume a fraction of something with constantly moving parts. Think of it this way: How long would a laptop battery last playing Mpeg 2 video (dvd) (4-8mb/sec)? What if it had to play 100mb/sec video? Of course it is powering a monitor, but the HVX has two screens plus powered mics, zoom etc. ( I just checked the Firestore..it has a 90minute battery) Hard drive technology is 'here', it just has too many drawbacks.

How annoyed would you be waiting for a hard drive to spin up and create a buffer big enough for HD video every time you punch the record button? If the solution is to always have it running then you will need to stock up on batteries.
At least with the P2s there is a Firestore workaround. A hard drive based camera would demand a lot more power. That fact would not improve over time.

Obviously I do not know how robust P2s will be, but I have to imagine that if they are selling them to news crews etc. (irreplaceable footage) they must be prettty resilient against bouncing, running cameras, vibration, etc. On a rough day jogging I can run out of buffer for _audio_ on a hard disk based iPod.

I am excited about P2. Unfortunately, for documentary shooting I will need a firestore for now, but P2 (solid state) is the step forward I want to make.

I guess that's why there are 31flavors.
:huh:
 
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