HVR-ZIU - B&H - $4,900

[The_Video_Guy]

Re: HVR-ZIU - B&H - $4,900

Wish there was some way to see when someone is typing to post a reply... though I was going to be after Jeff's first reply but Barry Beat me to it

I really can't wait to see what Panasonic does either. As far as film simulation goes, 24P is the way to go but overall I wonder how many people are producing small films to make money vs businesses and prosumers to make money? A weird analogy but it seem like a lot of indie filmakes I have met have done a few film with the intent of delivering to film but never getting there. It will be interesting also now that Z1 is out and PAL attempts to film are made... and yes though not true 24P, there potentially has to be some benifts of HDV resolution. Hey... if open water made it to the big screen anything can. It was done the the PD150. :-/ If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and acts like a duck, but it isn't a duck,... and you can make someone believe it's a duck... who cares which cam you are using. (The Open Water crew is laughing to the bank right now...)

 

[David Jimerson]

Re: HVR-ZIU - B&H - $4,900

[quote author=The_Video_Guy link=board=sony;num=1106156074;start=75#77 date=01/29/05 at 13:04:11] I just bought an FX1 a couple months ago and through tackful yet simple adversting of "HD" on your products and services these little gem has paid for itself twice.  [/quote]

How do you deliver the HD content?

 

[Barry_Green]

Re: HVR-ZIU - B&H - $4,900

As far as film simulation goes, 24P is the way to go but overall I wonder how many people are producing small films to make money vs businesses and prosumers to make money

Oh, I doubt any decently-measurable percentage of indie filmmakers are making any money with their films, whether shot on the DVX or any other camera.

But I and many other shooters are doing very well shooting 24P on the DVX, for projects that have nothing to do with getting inside a film theater.  TV commercials and corporate/industrial films and training videos and promo's and spoof/parody videos and music videos and infomercials... there are a *ton* of those being made and making good money for the shooters, all in 24P.

The "Open Water" crew is indeed laughing all the way to the bank, just like the "Blair Witch" guys did (even though that wasn't DV at all, it's still relevant).  And 99.99999999999% of indie filmmakers have spent their money and never seen a dime back, whether shot on film or video.

However, of those of us who are using our cameras in professional production, probably 95% of us are laughing our way all the way to the bank, using 24p all the way.

 

[David Jimerson]

Re: HVR-ZIU - B&H - $4,900

[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=sony;num=1106156074;start=75#82 date=01/29/05 at 13:41:46]
However, of those of us who are using our cameras in professional production, probably 95% of us are laughing our way all the way to the bank, using 24p all the way.[/quote]

Agreed! Clients adore the look.

 

[The_Video_Guy]

Re: HVR-ZIU - B&H - $4,900

[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=sony;num=1106156074;start=75#81 date=01/29/05 at 13:38:44]
How do you deliver the HD content?
[/quote]

Right now.. you don't.  You sell the concept of shooting in HD now and delievering in Widescreen DVD.  Hollywood is doing it.  It's going to be funny when Geoge Lucas re-releases Star Wars again in HD-DVD/BlueRay/whatever and then they'll need to beat up the DVD format to push HD content.  Most consumers for the first few years are going to think they are getting ripped.  "You mean my DVD player isn't high def?... but the salesman said... but I paid like 400 buck for the progressive scan one with DVI connection, but I have the HD TV... I wan HD though, even if I don't know what it is and can't tell the difference."  Most consumers are just finally convinced VHS is dead... now DVD is almost dead too?  Widescreen DVD in my opinion works well for now... and then when the high def solution comes out, up rez and redeliever again.  Repeat buiz... just like Mr. Lucas and everyone else making a buck off being technology saavy.

 

[David Jimerson]

Re: HVR-ZIU - B&H - $4,900

[quote author=The_Video_Guy link=board=sony;num=1106156074;start=75#84 date=01/29/05 at 14:40:10]

Right now.. you don't.  You sell the concept of shooting in HD now and delievering in Widescreen DVD. [/quote]

Yeah, that's kind of my point. You're selling them something you can't give them -- HD. Which would be fine if you weren't pushing the two letters as a selling point (which you say you are), when you can make any kind of video into a widescreen DVD -- and it's all 480p at best, whatever you shot it on. And when delivered in SD, the Sony cam delivers AT BEST no advantage and in many cases, an inferior picture compared to the DVX.

"Selling a bill of goods" is what it's usually called. I have no quibble with anyone using and loving the Sony. I do have a problem with pushing a service you iknow you can't deliver on.

 

[The_Video_Guy]

Re: HVR-ZIU - B&H - $4,900

[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=sony;num=1106156074;start=75#85 date=01/29/05 at 17:09:48]

Yeah, that's kind of my point.  You're selling them something you can't give them -- HD.  ..."Selling a bill of goods" is what it's usually called.  I have no quibble with anyone using and loving the Sony.  I do have a problem with pushing a service you iknow you can't deliver on.[/quote]

I have to disagree with you here... if I may...
Why do you think 24P is so popular?  They called it "film like" for a reason... to sell it!  No it's not film but hey, film like is close enough and in the end it has given the DVX the respect it derserves the last few years by people who took initial chances with it to produce actual features/programs that many would agree produces excellent images and does a pretty good job at riviling film. (as far as cost/budget is concerned).  Panasonic did a great job maketing this.  Had they have said, 24P and not tagged it with "cinemas style features / film effects", people may not have got it and discounted the cam right off the bat labeling it... "oh another DV camera trying to play with the big boys".  I have yet to see someone talk about the DVX and not mention that fact that it is good for a "film look"... and why wouldn't they?  It's the cameras best strength.

It is the same with all technology.  Pro logic came out which was "surround sound" on home theater amps, and thus was sold as "Surround Sound".  Just because Dolby Digital came out later doesn't mean Pro Logic isn't "surround sound"... but again along with the technology comes modification to the terms... so now it's "true surround sound"... which is what 5.1 dolby digital... until 9.1 or whatever takes it's place.

How do you think big box stores have been selling HDTV for the last 4 years?... It actually amazes me when I think about but again you can't discredit the fact that strategically it works.  Hardly any one in the world has HD signal going to their sets but it hasn't stop people from buying HDTV rear projection TV's for years.   Same with widescreen DVD's.  Some people hate them, but a lot of people like them cause if they get it, they feel as if they are getting more of the image (even if it physically is appearing on less of the 4x3 set if they don't have a HDTV yet.)

I never said I was selling them on HD but it's funny you interpreted it that way like so many people do.  You see the word HD and that's it.  Point made.  I said I was selling them on SHOOTING in HD and delivering Widescreen DVD.  There is a big difference... as everyone including consumers will find out this year in a big way when the light of the Blue Ray/HD-DVD war comes to a big box store near you.

I don't invent the rules... I just play by them. ( which I admit is confusing at the best of times... isn't technology wonderful  ???)

 

[Jeff_Chandler]

Re: HVR-ZIU - B&H - $4,900

and then when the high def solution comes out, up rez and redeliever again.  Repeat buiz

What kind of business are you doing that you can sell your client on some possible future use? Besides teaching high school television and video production, I do event, corporate, and educational video. I could sell some of them on 24p (that's one of many reasons I'm waiting for Panasonic, and if they don't come up with HD/24p combo, I will buy a DVX100. It's value as a production camera is no less today than it was the day it was introduced.), but I couldn't sell any of them on something that may exist in the future, something I can't deliver today. Weddings would be the only thing that I could see even a remote future market for, and that seems very unlikely, because not only would they not want to pay for a second edited wedding, but the majority of couples lose interest in their wedding vids within months of the wedding. Corporate or event customers would have moved on to something else by the time I would be able to deliver HD.

I wan HD though, even if I don't know what it is and can't tell the difference

I see no real evidence that most people care about HD one way are the other. That may change in the future, but it's the way it is today.

I have no quibble with anyone using and loving the Sony.  I do have a problem with pushing a service you iknow you can't deliver on.

Exactly my sentiments. My concern is, that I already know a couple of videographers using this cam that are selling their "HDV services", without telling their clients that they can't deliver a finished product. In other words, their clients think they are getting an HD DVD. They are charging a premium for the service and using it to beat out their competition for the job. I guess I'm old fashioned, but that's just wrong. It taints an already tainted industry that has too many sleazy videographers now. I'm not saying that's what you're doing Video Guy, but it's why I'm asking what your business is, and how you're convincing clients that this is a valuable service. Especially since, in the current marketplace, one would have to create a demand for the service, because I see no evidence that a demand exists now.

 

[David Jimerson]

Re: HVR-ZIU - B&H - $4,900

I just bought an FX1 a couple months ago and through tackful yet simple adversting of "HD" on your products and services these little gem has paid for itself twice.  (Z1 here I come!)...

Was what you originally said, and you followed it up with:

You sell the concept of shooting in HD now and delievering in Widescreen DVD. . . . Widescreen DVD in my opinion works well for now... and then when the high def solution comes out, up rez and redeliever again. Repeat buiz... just like Mr. Lucas and everyone else making a buck off being technology saavy.  

Taken together, there's only one way of "interpreting" it, which is probably why "so many people do."  It's WHAT YOU SAID.

No one ever said 24p WAS film, only that it LOOKS LIKE film.  "Video Guy," unless you're being EXTREMELY forthright with your clients and telling them exactly what they're getting, they're going to believe that what you're giving them IS HD, and not something that LOOKS LIKE HD.  And I think that's what you're wanting them to believe.  Your attempts to analogize it only make me think so more.  Dolby Pro-Logic is actually surround sound.  Dolby 5.1 is actually surround sound.  DTS 5.1 is actually surround sound.  A "Widescreen DVD" is NOT HD no matter what you shot it on.

How many of your clients, if we asked them, would know the DVDs you sold them aren't HD?

If there's even one, it's your fault, not theirs.

You see the word HD and that's it.  Point made.

I *promise* you I know as much about HD, Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, surround sound, home theater, and big box stores as you do.  

I don't invent the rules... I just play by them.  ( which I admit is confusing at the best of times... isn't technology wonderful  )

Translation:  I think other people mislead their customers, so it's OK for me to do it.

 

[The_Video_Guy]

Re: HVR-ZIU - B&H - $4,900

I said a tackful way the first time and then elaborated the second time. I guess you think I'm also the only one here who has ever pitched and landed big ad jobs by telling agencies that the DVX shoots film like images? I doubt that. So is the squeeze mode on the DVX really wide screen?... ( OI don't really care either way) The point I'm trying to make that you are not getting is that depending on what you know and how much you know you can give you the upper hand when pitching and selling. This is obviously drifting off topic so at the end of this post I will accept that we don't see things the same way and refrain from making any more comments on this topic.

[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=sony;num=1106156074;start=75#88 date=01/29/05 at 19:03:12]No one ever said 24p WAS film, only that it LOOKS LIKE film.[/quote]

How is that all that much different from what I'm saying? Same principle.. you are saying it a bit different... typically to clients I don't think you would say... ya I'm shooting with MiniDV. Even though you are shooting with MiniDV, there is nothing wrong with dressing it up by saying your shooting on the DVX100 24P... there is some weight to that.

[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=sony;num=1106156074;start=75#88 date=01/29/05 at 19:03:12]A "Widescreen DVD" is NOT HD no matter what you shot it on.[/quote]

Again, I never said that it was.

[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=sony;num=1106156074;start=75#88 date=01/29/05 at 19:03:12]
How many of your clients, if we asked them, would know the DVDs you sold them aren't HD?

If there's even one, it's your fault, not theirs.
Translation: I think other people mislead their customers, so it's OK for me to do it.[/quote]

Actually all of them know... I've never had this mistake once. I make it perfectly clear to them. Whether or not they have an intrest in technology, understand or follow historic and current trends is not my problem. I generally don't sit them down and give them the evolution of technology speech. They know that the quality will be professional and so far using the GL2, DVX and now FX1, I feel each all of these cameras has met my and all my clients excpectations. Call it misleading if you want. I think the proper word for it would be marketing... it's just the way it is.

 

[Shaw]

Re: HVR-ZIU - B&H - $4,900

Their knowledge of technology IS your problem! If you tell them I'm shooting in HD and will give you a DVD very few if any will know that the video will be standard definition. Marketing =/ leaving information out.

EDIT: =/ is a crude representation of the "does not equal" symbol

 

[The_Video_Guy]

Re: HVR-ZIU - B&H - $4,900

Nope... marketing is sellinng someone on a concept. I believe this to be correct. If you don't, that's ok. You don't need to see things my way.

We could start a whole other debate. Which HDTV format is better? 720p 1080i... when it really isn't about what it better. Each person will have their application and their perpective... and in all honesty if at NAB Panasonic turns around and offers HD in 720 HDV or DVCPRO HD, I'll be one of the first one the band wagon. Hopefully they do and then we can debate HD vs HD.

 

[Shaw]

Re: HVR-ZIU - B&H - $4,900

Assuming we go with the definition you give for marketing, don't you feel that it is ethically wrong to mislead someone by not including all the information they need? Do you feel it is wrong to leave out information that could be a deciding factor for a client just so you get the job?

 

[The_Video_Guy]

Re: HVR-ZIU - B&H - $4,900

Sometimes no.  In high end pressure sales I've actually lots sales because I've talked the people out of bying it because sometimes people are scared of what they don't understand.  Problem with technology is good luck understanding it all.  I feel as though the position I take depends on the customers needs.  Not every productions requires 24P with the DVX... not every project requires HDV source video... but again technology transformations are inevitable.  Would try to sell someone a DVD player if all they ever had was VHS tapes?  Well depends on what they are planning to do... and that is the point I am making.  Sometimes people want to know what they want to know.. and that's all.  That is what is so great about these forums is when companies like sony create BS cineframe modes and such claming to be "like film", you can find out from others in the field pretty much instantaneouly if it's legit or not.  The concensus so far amougnst Sony and Panny fans is it's a Joke.  Even Sony biased people will say that.  But Sony implemented that funtion for a reason?  Why?... does it make sony evil cause it's not real 24P?  No of course not... but if you know that then stay away cause you know better.  If you know better and don't care... all power to you.  You caputure all your glorious movie moments in CF24.  (until sony abanons HDV and goes with Panasonic HVCPRO HD... hey it could happen!!.. it wouldn't be a sony first. ;D)  

Moral of the story spend your money how you like... as long as you make an educated decision and are happy in the end.

 

[Jeff_Chandler]

Re: HVR-ZIU - B&H - $4,900

The only one I can speak for is myself, but I want my customers to completely understand what I am selling them. The reasons are: First, and most important, personal integrity. I am my video company, and if my customers cant trust that what I am giving them is what it's supposed to be, then I have lost my integrity. Second, contracts, and this should concern the videographer who has little or no integrity. If you don't deliver what has been promised, you are legally liable. That's why it is so important to make sure the customer undrstands what they are getting and that you are on the same page. Even if you have the highest degree of the first, you can't neglect the second. Losing a client to a dishonest company bothers me, but it doesn't cause me to use their dishonest tactics, because when it's all said and done, who I am (and a good nights sleep!) is more important to me than any amount of money.

 

[Barry_Green]

Re: HVR-ZIU - B&H - $4,900

The only problem I have in selling someone on HD is, like others have said, what benefit is it to them?

If the customer is making a commercial for broadcast on the local HD television stations, I have no problem with it.

If they're broadcasting a standard def signal, but for some reason they want and demand that it be shot in HD, hey, I'll give them what they ask for. I'll explain that there's no benefit, but if they really want it, why not give it to them?

But I wouldn't dare try to tell them that the product would be superior in any way (other than that they could re-master an HD version someday in the future)... and I wouldn't dare try to tell them that "hey, because I shoot on HDV, your local broadcast commercial or your wedding video DVD will look better"... because that would be a lie.

HDV doesn't look any better on DVD than DVX or XL2 footage does. It looks much better when displayed on an HDTV (all other things being equal, which they rarely are), but ONLY IF PLAYED IN ITS ORIGINAL HD FORM, like from HDV tape. If you shot footage on an HDV camera and made a DVD of it, it will look no better than if you'd shot it on the DVX or XL2, even if played on an HDTV.

Now, if you shot on the CineAlta or VariCam, yes they would look much better. But not any better than if you'd shot on an SDX900, I'd wager.

So offer HDV if you have it, but if you're telling people their DVD's are going to look better than the competition's XL2 or DVX because you're using HDV, well, that's just deceitful. (note: not saying that that's what you're doing, but I'm trying to figure out exactly what's going on, and this is one angle that I'm hoping people aren't taking).

 

[SergejIvanovits]

Re: HVR-ZIU - B&H - $4,900

[quote author=The_Video_Guy link=board=sony;num=1106156074;start=90#91 date=01/29/05 at 19:45:34]Nope... marketing is sellinng someone on a concept.  I believe this to be correct.  If you don't, that's ok.  You don't need to see things my way.
[/quote]

That's right. One from the Sales & Marketing at Arri sad , why do you use video camcorder when the scanning technology is so good. Just use film to shoot the concept and go digital after scanning. And you know what? He has right but it cost and who can pay for it?

Everyone has they argumentation to buy what they are selling. Sony is selling the new HDV concept because everyone wants some High Definition camcorder but they can't pay for it. Panasonic is selling DVX with film imitation to people who wants film but they can't pay for it. Canon is selling XL2 with film imitation , with "I have a bigger lens than yours" and the pro look. Panasonic and Sony has already product in real progressiv world but not everyone can pay for it.

And if you take a look at what those camcorders cost, they are cheap. Most of the people with a litle dream about making something can buy one and realise those dreams. A Z1 costs under 5000. Incredible. A serieus foto lens costs more. You can't find a viewfinder for this money. It's a cheap investment if you compere it to how much work you can finishe with the equipment.

And as you are saying. Sell a HD concept and deliver what they can use today. We made VHS produced with BetaSP. Now DVD with DV/DVCam/DVCpro. And now it gonna be HD/HDV. The customer still using VHS and DVD.

 

[The_Video_Guy]

Re: HVR-ZIU - B&H - $4,900

[quote author=SergejIvanovits link=board=sony;num=1106156074;start=90#96 date=01/29/05 at 20:55:41]Everyone has they argumentation to buy what they are selling. Sony is selling the new HDV concept because everyone wants some High Definition camcorder but they can't pay for it. Panasonic is selling DVX with film imitation to people who wants film but they can't pay for it. Canon is selling XL2 with film imitation , with "I have a bigger lens than yours" and the pro look. Panasonic and Sony has already product in real progressiv world but not everyone can pay for it.
...
And as you are saying. Sell a HD concept and deliver what they can use today. We made VHS produced with BetaSP. Now DVD with DV/DVCam/DVCpro. And now it gonna be HD/HDV. The customer still using VHS and DVD.[/quote]

Thank you SergejIvanovits... I felt like I was alone. I think people think I am the used car salesman of video... DVHS anyone...? It's next big thing! Get it now while it's hot (and still here)

By no means do I claim that HDV down rez to DV is better than the Panasonic... or Canon for that matter. I've looked through all my posts that people have been critisizing for and I think that is a safe statement for myself to make. I get the impression that it's what people believe I'm implying. It's not at all.

I think Barry got my opnion correct with the statement "But I wouldn't dare try to tell them that the product would be superior in any way (other than that they could re-master an HD version someday in the future)... " This is the only thing I have really been trying to get accross. People even giving me ethical speeches... Believe me that is the last business practice I will practice... being unethical. Your rep and your word takes a lifetime to create and can crumble in a single statment.

SergejIvanovits also said it best when he made the comment regarding each cams "selling feature". The one I related to the most was the Canon. I actually was attempting to sell the client on using the DVX on a shoot cause my judgement said that it would be the best for the application. When I thought I had him convinced (which I think I can do pretty effectively) , he takes all the facts that I used to plug the DVX and wants to use the XL1 on the shoot?!? Am I wrong to try to persuade him other wise? ..... He wanted the "intimidation factor" of the lens on the XL1... :-[. Does this mean that I'm not ethical cause I pushed to use the DVX? I didn't feel that way. Was the client unethical for wanting to look intimidating... (you get where this is going)

Sometimes it is about perception and that's ok. I've used the DVX to sell jobs... the XL1 and now the FX1 and each have their selling weak and hot spots. Which one is better?... to me, at times, that question is irrelevant.

I agree with you 100 pecent Jeff_Chandler that... there is something about making an honest living that feels good as I am also one of these people that fall into this category.

This comment is totally out in left feild though...
"I see no real evidence that most people care about HD one way are the other. That may change in the future, but it's the way it is today."... the future?!... not sure where you are getting your facts but try walking into an electronic retail store to buy a new television sometime... you may find that they are starting to become rectangle shaped.

 

[Jeff_Chandler]

Re: HVR-ZIU - B&H - $4,900

out in left field

I base it on the fact that there is an enormous established user base of SD tv's, and in fact many are still being sold. If nothing was being sold other than Hd TV's, it would still take a long time for it to become the dominating format. Walk into a Best Buy, for example, and there are just as many SD tv's as HD. The fact is that not a lot of people understand HD, and even many of those who have bought or are buying HD tv's don't really know much about it. In other words, they're not buying it because they are so impressed with the format (they think everything that plays on their HD set, is HD), but rather because they have to have the latest electronics. I know that at some point these TV's will become common-place, but until the prices drop significantly, that won't happen. And also, until people feel a need for it. I could be mistaken, but I really don't think I am. Since I teach in a high school, I get to talk to people who are not in the business, and most of them show no real interest in HD. Many already own a big screen TV with Surround sound, and see no need for a new one. And more interestingly to me, I've talked to a lot of high school students about it, and they have very little interest. That is significant to me, because they are a technological and media saturated generation. I think the manufacturers are going to have to convince the consumers that they can't live without this format, and I think that's a difficult (not impossible) sale. I saw HD demo'd at Epcot Center in 1995, and I was impressed. But I still don't have a set, and I won't have until it becomes a requirement for my business, and that won't be anytime soon. I just really don't need to see CSI in high def. And, quite frankly, it really does nothing to enhance a story. I would enjoy it most for nature programs.
If you have something good going with HDV, more power to you. As I stated before, I am more interested in a HD cam that will also have 24p, so that I can get practical use from it now. So, I won't be jumping on board with HDV anytime in the near future, and hopefully I will have a better option and won't need to come on board at all. That doesn't mean you shouldn't. Early adopters do the rest of us a great service by working out the bugs, or proving/disproving the value of the format.

 

[The_Video_Guy]

Re: HVR-ZIU - B&H - $4,900

Last question I need to ask cause I'm curious now from reading all previous posts...

Apparently from most peoples comments, Barry included, ( I mention you specifially cause I do respect your opinion for obvious reasons)...

I conclude people here in general believe the following are true...

-HD is not here yet.
-The there is no delivery format available. (HD DVD/BlueRay)
-I would still buy the DVX over the HDV Sony even if they don't release a new HD model in the next year
-HD is the future, SD is now.
-I feel uneithical pitching shooting in HD... to name a few.

Hypothetical situation... Panasonic announces this week that a new DVCPRO HD cam with be available which will essentially replace the DVX100a in about 1 - 2 years. It will be available in April 2005. DVX price drops a couple hundred bucks and DVCPRO HD DVX200 is released with
-24P DVCPRO HD (we should make it HDV for debates sake)
-720p
-native 16x9 CCD chips
-down rez combatible to SD DV
-film settings, manual control and everything else for MSRP of $4500 US...

After all this, BlueRay/HD DVD gets delayed until summer of 2006.

From what I understand from comments I've read... (asumption only here, which is what I seem to have been getting a lot of... feel free to correct me and elaborate) what most are saying is the evolution of HD would prevent them from buy this potential great cam today because of the delivery medium is not mainstream?

Call me a band wagon jumper but this little goodie would be in my house next day... and I'm sure it could sell it's advantages over the FX1 and Z1 to clients if need be. Wrong still? I don't think so...