HVR-V1E vs. HVX 200 - does it make sense?

[Flash Beaver]

Hey there liebkid,

A red for <$10k would be a good thing. But what attracts me so to whats around the corner, is the idea there are going to be cameras you can almost select or tailor to you. Especially the RED.

Even the HDV stuff which I have no interest is going to be just right for a lot of people, the way P2 and DVCPRO HD is good for a happy beaver on the river.

Still, out here in the woods we put our equipment to real heavy use, my business partner and I have personally choosen every component around us right down to the XLR connectors and our raincoats.

To think that right around the corner is a camera that I can piece together like an erector set, be of awesome quality and actually within reach of the people may not be a dream for much longer.

The HVX has come real close to fitting the bill for us, and after giving it some thought, I think the offerings from the other manufacturers are going to fit the bill for an even greater number of people trying to come up.

I've seen loads of footage from our "competition" shot on some damn nice equipment way more bucks than our HVX that looked worse than a bad high school production. A $60k+ camera just aint too pretty when its not adjusted, or even white balanced properly.

3 times a week I get hit with "what's the best camera" for taking picture, shooting video, fill-in-blank-here, etc. I give some pros and cons of specific models, trying to give them a tailored match.

But my standard bottom line is and will remain: Whichever camera feels good in your hand, makes complete control easy for you, and allows for consitent pictures that you or your paying customers love, is the right one for you.

So HVX vs HVR making sense? Yes at the end of the day it does make sense.
All this new gear is going to blur the lines just a little more for content creation. Lessening obstacles between a person and their idea.

Be it HVX, HVR, HDV, DVCPRO, XDCAM, RED, 35mm, 16mm; whatever path you choose, cream will still rise to the top and collect a "paycheck."

 

[AshG]

Way too many definitive statements here based on cameras that are not even in the marketplace at all or have not penetrated the marketplace enough to develop skilled users. You lose all credibility to me when you start saying inflammatory things like worst footage I have ever seen, unuseable, etc. etc. etc. Truth is ALL these cameras are "good enough" and in a similar class. Each of them have issues that must be worked around and each of them have strengths. There absolutely is not "best" camera, there is a best camera for a certain job... or a best camera for a certain person based on their work and LARGELY personal preference.



ash =o)

 

[Fugitive]

My Sony VX1000, sucked. My Sony VX2000, sucked. My Sony FX1, sucked. My Sony VAIO SR-1 Desktop, sucked. My 2 Sony VAIO Laptops, sucked. My two Sony Minidisk walkman sucked. My Sony Qualia-004 SXRD Projector, sucked (and that is, aside from them killing the brand all-together recently and leaving me with a $25.000 machine with no more support or parts for, which REALLY sucks). My newer Sony Ruby SXRD Projector, sucked. My Sony HC3 HD camcorder, sucked. Several other DV and HD consumer cameras, all sucked. The first reviews out on the new Sonys AVCHD cameras also already suck

Well dude, looks like you just plain suck...

Seriously, If you dont like the FX1 or any other camera, then find your own little corner to whine about it rather than troll here. If you must complain here, then atleast make a technical (or artistic) argument out of it.

 

[John Froton]

Well dude, looks like you just plain suck...

Seriously, If you dont like the FX1 or any other camera, then find your own little corner to whine about it rather than troll here. If you must complain here, then atleast make a technical (or artistic) argument out of it.

That's a little harsh.

I needled him for buying tons of stuff he didn't like too... but by the same token, liebkid has offered a lot of constructive input on this thread as well.

I thought it was more funny than agravating.

 

[DavidBeier]

Well dude, looks like you just plain suck...

Seriously, If you dont like the FX1 or any other camera, then find your own little corner to whine about it rather than troll here. If you must complain here, then atleast make a technical (or artistic) argument out of it.

You wanna know why some people hate the FX1? You've just said the magic words:

-A measly 5 1/2 stops of lattitude.
-Terrible progressive mode that both drops the resolution and doesn't manage to properly simulate the 24p motion in the first place.
-Very video-ish colors and gamma (subjective)
-No XLR input
-Lack of image controls
-Worst HDV codec of the major cameras with the most motion breakup.

Now there are a number of things that people like about the FX1; it's cheap, it has great low light performance, it looks relativly sharp in 60i. It just depends on what you wanna do and I personally find it a real crapper for narrative filmmaking.

 

[John Froton]

Hey Flash Beaver,

I know this is off topic but I couldn't help but notice sometime back that you are in Oregon. I lived in Klamath Falls for 25 years and moved out to Ohio in June of 2000. I hope you're enjoying the wilderness out there. I am envious ... it's all flat out here in Ohio with corn fields and maple trees everywhere. Their idea of a mountain is any piece of land rising 50 feet above sea level or higher

EDIT: To keep in topic I would like to ask if anyone has seen any impressive looking clips from the V1U? Some clips I have seen from Douglas Spotted Eagle showed an example of the dynamic range of the camera handling straight on shots pointed toward the sun -- but still the footage was not impressive in terms of making me see a better picture quality than tons of clips I have seen from the HVX200. I would like to see some really well composed footage sometime. Something more polished looking.

 

[DavidBeier]

Some clips I have seen from Douglas Spotted Eagle showed an example of the dynamic range of the camera handling straight on shots pointed toward the sun --

??? That's not the best way to test the lattitude not to mention he may well fry the chip. A good test of lattitude is simply shooting in direct sunlight with both very hot spots and some shady areas and see how detail you can retain in both.

 

[John Froton]

??? That's not the best way to test the lattitude not to mention he may well fry the chip. A good test of lattitude is simply shooting in direct sunlight with both very hot spots and some shady areas and see how detail you can retain in both.

Well to be fair to DSE, the shots he took were more as you describe with the sun lurking in the corner with a paratrooper crossing near the sun's brightness. The clip showed that the contrasting highlights did not give way too much under the extreme conditions, showing that the CMOS chips did not fall apart as most typical CCDs do under such visual duress.

Still, there was no real content of anything having any rich detail to show off in the clips.

 

[DavidBeier]

Well to be fair to DSE, the shots he took were more as you describe with the sun lurking in the corner with a paratrooper crossing near the sun's brightness. The clip showed that the contrasting highlights did not give way too much under the extreme conditions, showing that the CMOS chips did not fall apart as most typical CCDs do under such visual duress.

Still, there was no real content of anything having any rich detail to show off in the clips.

Frankly, I'd rather just take some regular tests. Lets see how many stops this thing is capible of. It took me a while of getting used to handling the HVX200 in direct sunlight but I'm now comfortible and find I can get some really great results. According to Adam Wilt, under the best settings the HVX200 can pull off 8 and a half stops. That's pretty damn nice. I'd love to have more. I'd love to have the 10 stops of the Varicam and I'd even more like the 11 or 12 stops we see from most decent film stocks.

My concern comes from what he's comparing the camera to. We're already seeing the Sony reps talk about it's progressive mode like they were the first ones to ever be able to encode 24p to a 60i stream. The bottom line is that it seems they are comparing their progressive mode agains the old one they used with the FX1 and Z1 which were, frankly, compete and utter crap (lousy motion, loss of resolution). I worry that perhaps the lattitude is suffering the same comparisons. I recall reading that the FX1 only had about 5 and 1/2 stops of lattitude. I'm not sure if the number is that low but, from my work with it, it certainly didn't have much and was a real pain to shoot in harsh sunlight. Just managing meager 7 and 1/2 stops would be a miracle compared to the FX1 so the bragging I hear isn't quite enough to get me flabber-gasted. If it's manging 7 /12 to 8 stops that's great but it's not enough to really get me all that excited considering the HVX can already do this (and the HD100 from what I understand). On the other hand, if this thing is pulling someing like 10 or 11 stops of lattitude then it may well be the biggest reccomendation for this camera that I've heard and reason enough to get me excited. I personally care a lot more about lattitude then a few extra pixels squeezed onto an already too small chip.

It's the same problem with the review that was posted. It's written by someone who gave the Z1 a perfect score and, while I know many like the camera, I find it totally unsuited for narrative filmmaking. I'd really like to see someone who's looking at it from a completely narrative progressive angle, someone who is looking for the things that many of us are looking for (and doesn't consider 24p as a cute little perk as the reviewer seems to), to actually play with this thing and put it through the runs. Out of curiosity why havn't they been sending the camera to people more narrativly oriented instead of videographers who were totally happy with the FX1/Z1 model?

 

[StMad]

Some good reading in ths thread. But if we're going to talk about the functionality and flexiblity of the HVX with 2 8g cards, remember that you're paying almost twice the price of other cams in this category.

I barely do any run & gun shooting since moving up from the XL2 to the HVX (I have 1 4g card), and some of the fun has gone from my shooting. When the 8g cards are more affordable it'll be fun as usual for me, but at a cost.

 

[Fugitive]

You wanna know why some people hate the FX1? You've just said the magic words:

-A measly 5 1/2 stops of lattitude.
-Terrible progressive mode that both drops the resolution and doesn't manage to properly simulate the 24p motion in the first place.
-Very video-ish colors and gamma (subjective)
-No XLR input
-Lack of image controls
-Worst HDV codec of the major cameras with the most motion breakup.

Now there are a number of things that people like about the FX1; it's cheap, it has great low light performance, it looks relativly sharp in 60i. It just depends on what you wanna do and I personally find it a real crapper for narrative filmmaking.

Thank you David, thats exactly what I meant. If you read my post again, thats exactly what I state: "atleast make a technical (or artistic) argument out of it", rather than just saying "This sucks". You have done that, and I dont have any problems with that.

That said, there are a great many reasons I can think of why I wouldnt want to have any other camera (including the HVX) eiether, so no point in singleing out the FX1. Each camera has its merits and sh!t-factors.

@John Froton: I agree I may have been a little harsh, but I cant be blamed since very few people here even try to explain, rather than just trash a product. Very disagreeable state of affairs.