hpx500 or ex3

Jan_Crittenden said:
But I cannot make a standard that has gauranteed interchangability on a HDD that wasn't around in 2004.

Hey I know that P2 has an entry cost and it is high. But it has a long run cost that is much cheaper than anything else that is media based because it will still be willing to record long after any of the other flash memory offerings. Tape and disc are the most expensive recording materials out there, especialy if that is the archive.

Keep in mind the P2 is able to record any of the formats that are in the camera on the same card and if we make another codec, it too will be able to record it. If you look at it from the Panasonic view, you don't have to buy new recording media to change codecs, it just works. Analyze this for a second. Find another maintream solid state camera that can record DV, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, DVCPRO HD and AVC-Intra. Now I know the 500 doesn't record AVC-I but my point is on the P2 card, it is format agnostic, and to take it a step fruther, I could have a clip form all of those, then fip the frequecy to 50Hz and record them all again and all of them could reside on the same card. There is not another recording media that is that flexible.

Anyhow I know every one doesn't like the price of the P2, but it is a standard that works across the product line and we have been able to capitalize on it because we don't have to reinvent the recording area of the cameras, we can spend our resources on making other cool cameras and devices like the P2 Gear, the P2 Portable, the AJ-HPX3700, and the HPX500. Five years ago you wouldn't have been able to get a camera that does what the 500 does for under $60,000. But because we made a standard to work with we could bring the price of entry into professional HD less. All because of P2.

Best,

Jan
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Sorry Jan,
But I totally have to disagree with you on the P2 matter.
P2 is great, but it is like making a good car and saying it can only ride on special very expensive gas.

Jan_Crittenden said:
"Tape and disc are the most expensive recording materials out there, especialy if that is the archive."
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What do you think I have to do when I finish my production?
I cannot archive it on P2; who's that crazy?

Jan_Crittenden said:
"Now I know the 500 doesn't record AVC-I but my point is on the P2 card, it is format agnostic, and to take it a step fruther, I could have a clip form all of those, then fip the frequecy to 50Hz and record them all again and all of them could reside on the same card. There is not another recording media that is that flexible.."
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You can do the same with EX1 and EX3 just for 50US$

Once more if Pana is really concerned about the user, then make another HPX500 with an HD-VF, highres sensor and an build-in and removable solidstate HD next to the god given P2.
 
Kenny, i think you'll find most are quite satisfied with the workflow and technology employed for the 500, i know i am, and sure improvements could be made (but always can be made....)

So is there any point to this debate? Seems you want professional stats at consumer prices to me.
 
Kenny_G said:
Sorry Jan,
But I totally have to disagree with you on the P2 matter.
P2 is great, but it is like making a good car and saying it can only ride on special very expensive gas.
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Kenny, you may disagree, but the reality is that there isn't a better medium for recording that thas the quality, it lifespan or the reliability as P2. Yes is is expensive but I can use it in any of the cameras. I can't do that in the other guy's systems.

What do you think I have to do when I finish my production?
I cannot archive it on P2; who's that crazy?
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Archive on LTO whixh has a cost of about .25 per gig, versus the approximate cost of video tape or disc which is $1.00 per gig.

You can do the same with EX1 and EX3 just for 50US$
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Well actually you can't. You cannot pre-load metadata into the camera by SD, you cannot do pre-record, you can't do loop record and you can't do Standard Def and you can't do I-frame recording regardless of flavor of media. And you can't go from turning it on to record in less than 4 seconds, and you can't go from playback to record in less than 2 seconds. Yes the two theorectically sound similar, but they are no where in the same league.

Once more if Pana is really concerned about the user, then make another HPX500 with an HD-VF, highres sensor and an build-in and removable solidstate HD next to the god given P2.
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We could have put an HD VF on there but that would have cost the customer, namely you guys, another $3000-$4000. I am not sure that would have worked so well, as many need that money for a Lens, s Tripod, Batteries and other accessories. We looked at all parts of the equation when making the decisions around this camera, I think we got it right, there is always going to be a Price/Performance Ratio and you have to look at everything when you put together a camera.

So yes you can disagree with me, but the reality is you have never been on the manufacturing end of the video camera system design and what it costs to make them. I have and in making the decisions we have, has made a product that offers an excellent price performance ratio.

Best,

Jan
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Oh yeah and im not just sucking up to get a date with Jan when I say this (call me Jan, its Lawrie Brewster www.newagefilm.co.uk hehe ;) *Ahem* but if it weren't for the hpx500 then i would definately still be in 1/3 land!

Now 1/3 land got a lot better obviously with the hvx200, hpx170 etc, but an affordable shoulder mount cam at 2/3 was something i wouldn't have dreamed of! I bet many wouldn't either.

P2 is expensive from the perspective of someone who buys usb pen drives, and external hard drives for their computer, but for a me, to be able to record hd dvc pro across any spectrum of p2 panny camera its astonishing. That i can also use it for avc intra codec recording cameras is just another great option.

So its all relative, of course we'd like to see everything we have to buy get made cheaper, but i really fail to see an obvious alternative value for money for what the p2 range of cameras can do. 35mg HDV (or the very best hdv variants) just aren't suitable 'for me' im glad they are for others, and that for them it can give value for money - for me p2 does.

:)
 
Jan, I think most of us agree with P2 from a technology standpoint. Of course it sucks the new laptops won´t accept it (expresscard slots), but other than that it is a solid workflow. A workflow that hasn´t failed me in over 2 years now while on tape (DV, IMX, DigiBeta, BetaSP) you have glitches on a monthly basis; especially when using tapes several times or getting different tape-stocks from different customers.

And I am sure you are aware of the arguments we have against the pricing. To be honest I don´t believe the P2 technology hasn´t paid off yet and Pana "needs to keep the price and only has a small margin". When was the break even planned? after 2 years ? 3? We are beyond that. The R&D is payed and apparently Panasonic sticks to P2 for another half decade. Again, I claim Panasonic would sell manymanymany more cams was there not the price of P2.

I for example know 3 small producers who stick to SONY/Canon/JVC only for that reason. Maybe it is wrong thinking, maybe they are not informed good enough, but when they look at the package they rather live with long-GOP on SD cards than intra-frame on P2. That is the simple reality and Panasonic knows it. I don´t know what they protect or what secret deal the Japanese companies have among each other to not hurt each other too badly. But I know it is tough for us producers.

Example: We are just pitching for a roadbike race. 7 days, 10 hours per day, 2-4 cams. Cams will be on motorbikes and we don´t know what happens when. P2? Crazy idea and won´t work. I know I can make it work, but at what cost? Could be I need 6 hours continuos shooting some day. I will probably have lost any contact to an assistant. I would have to equip at least 2 shooters with 360GB P2 (6x64GB cards), and the others with half of that. Never know what happens in which pack of the race.
We had a meeting and contemplated buying some of the new 300 for this gig alone. Vote was against it. Use Ex-1s, stick SDHC cards in there. Lighter, cheaper, "good enough". End of my argument there. And I am not happy about the decision.

But since the EX works with SD cards it is even stronger on demand than before. SxS compared to P2. I hear Panasonic and it is working. But with the SD "card-hack" the EX is nearly unbeatable for documentaries and long shootings.
 
Kenny_G said:
Sorry Jan,
But I totally have to disagree with you on the P2 matter.
P2 is great, but it is like making a good car and saying it can only ride on special very expensive gas.
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Not exactly, a better metephor would be a car (camera) that you only have to fill up the tank once for the life of the vehicle (original purchase of p2 cards). And whenever you buy a new vehicle (camera), that original purchase of gas (P2 cards) can be carried over to run the new vehicle from the same manufacturer, whether it be an entry level compact car, utility vehicle, or the top of the line sports car they make (HPX170 to HPX3700 and everything inbetween); unlike other car manufacturers who require continuous refills of gas (tapes, optical media) or higher octane fuel (non-standard recording media accross product line).

Now this will bring up the argument on the higher price of the one time initial purchase of gas (P2cards) for this awesome car (camera). People will complain that it is overpriced compared to options other car manufacturers offer(tape,disk,one time use media). But that all depends on how many miles (hours of use) you drive your car.

If you only are going say, 250 miles total, then a car that has a one time use tank of gas might serve you better or you could rent the car (camera).
But, if you plan on owning the car (camera) for many years and driving (recording)hundreds of thousands miles (hours) with it, then the one-time purchase of gas (p2cards) is a great bargain compared to the total price of gas (tape, disks, one time use media) purchased over the lifetime of cars by other manufacturers.


I'm sure some will point out that other solid state media solutions like SDHC, sxs, etc, and thier cameras apply to this metephor (and they do to a certain extent regarding the one time purchase part), but they are no where near the level compatability accross the entire product line as panasonic is with their cameras and p2 cards, including the wide range recording formats.

As for archiving, you can handle it however you want. For me inexpensive harddrives (backed up of course) is how i handle it.


Gotta go now and drive my "one-time purchase of gas car".:thumbup:
 
I've heard of the SD "card-hack" for the EX1, but I've also heard that it glitches now and then. Is that true? If so, that's too big of a risk.
 
Dude, the EX1 hack glitches alot. just shot a 12 day doc on EX1, w/ 2x 8gig SXS cards and three lexar 16gig sd cards with the adapter. i got corrupt clips all over the place, and lost a portion of an interview with a VERY difficult to pin down fashion mogul.

The hack sucks and isnt professional quality. the standard expensixe sxs cards were rock solid like p2 is. If you want to take a chance with your footage be my guest. I refuse to work with the cheap "hack" again.
 
Iam using 12 Sandisk and Kingston SDcards with KxS adapters and I have shot about 80 hours with them.
The first time I used 1 of the Kingstons, I got a restore message, but after that, I had no problems whatsoever. I never had a corrupted file. Iam happy with them, Iam happy that I can spent the extra money on other things like tripod, monopod, bag, SGBlade pro and Nikon adapters, .6 wide adapter lens, filters, Jib, dolly, Libec remote control with extention cable for the jib, Senheiser shotgun and wireless, reflectors, etc..
Things I wouldn't be able to buy if I had bought the HPX500 with 8 16Gb P2 cards or 8 SxS cards for the EX3. If I was loaded, probably I would have go for the Pana HPX3000, but since Iam not, I have to settle for less but with acceptable quality that gives me good results. That's the EX3.

By the way, I love those arguments about the P2. It is like listening to a good car salesman.
 
It is like listening to a good car salesman.
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Yeah well guess what listening to you is like... ;) Instead of being sarcastic and squabbling for the sake of it about P2, why not move on with this debate. Your obviously happy with the hack thing your using, others obviously aren't - your doing what works for you... it doesnt for others...
 
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lawriejaffa said:
Yeah well guess what listening to you is like... ;) Instead of being sarcastic and squabbling for the sake of it about P2, why not move on with this debate. Your obviously happy with the hack thing your using, others obviously aren't - your doing what works for you... it doesnt for others...
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My dearest HPXer,
Don't get mad; it's just a game and life is too short to get angry about something that isn't yours, but that you only got by buying it. I mean, you didn't develop the HPX500 and the P2, so you’re just using it for what you do probably best, making productions.
My point is that the P2 may be the best, but it serves only the seller(read Panasonic), because what it does, can be done with a lot less money. On the other hand if you want to pay for it, be my guest, it's your money, so what the hack, who am I to say something about it. I am just a poor old guy who tries to do something nice with a low budget. If you can afford a Ferrari, buy the Ferrari, but we all will arrive at the party sooner or later.

The HPX500 is a great cam, was my choice the moment I read something about it, but just what I said before, the extra's to get it operational are too much for me, that's why I am happy with the EX3 and in heaven with the SxS hack as you call it. The HPX500 has it shortages, so has the EX3.

Someone said once that looks matters, so the look of the HPX500 is the classical professional look and that can also be a point for buying it.
 
For me its not such an issue financially - when i bought my first cam the hvx200 the cost of P2 was really scary haha. I remember someone saying to me 'well if you can't afford it perhaps your not ready for it!' Ouch I thought - ie i should go get a canon xl1 2nd hand or something.

I bit the bullet and got the hvx, similarly i eventually got the hpx500 as a 2/3 professional camera that's fairly affordable. The overall cost of P2 to a business is accountable obviously but its minor in comparison to the bigger scheme of things.

As a consumer, as one wee man who was trying to save everything to get an hpx500 and p2- then heck that would suck! Then the p2 costs would obviously make something like a ex more attractive - with its hacks for using cheaper bits and bops.

But there in is where i see the comparison taking an irrelevant form. Its someone demanding prices of things to fit in their consumer budget frames.

Thats just my opinion, and im certainly not mad about it. I see some of your innuendo in the thread as a little sarcastic but nothing serious daarlin ;)
 
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