HPX371e small Jello effect?

[GaryNattrass]

Bear in mind that the BBC settings are certainly not Gospel. Alan Roberts would I'm sure admit that he doesn't get to spend that much time and in real situations with most of the cameras he tests.
The big exception is probably the tape Varicam which had massive testing for the Planet Earth series and it's very likely that the Alan and the team's settings get the very best out of that camera.
Steve

I agree Steve and Alan has said in most of his reports that he doesn't get much time with the camera's. He is very experienced though and his reports have helped me get the 301's, 2700,3700 and a 3000 set up to something that is a good start point for film and video look.

Having read all the reports though I can see that the time spent with the tape varicam has helped as most of the panasonic cameras seem very similar inside.

 

[steve phillipps]

Definitely Gary, not dismissing Alan's genius at all, he really is a guru! But as you say, you need to use them as a base and modify them from there (while being careful as some things can really screw it up!) based on your subject/location/requirements.

Still looking for any more comments on the 370/371 in different situations, anyone got anything more to share? There really is very little out there.

Steve

 

[deti]

@Garion: Was FBC switched on in your test shot and are you really sure you did see this effect in the viewfinder too?

Deti

 

[Garion]

@Garion: Was FBC switched on in your test shot and are you really sure you did see this effect in the viewfinder too?

Deti

hi deti,

i was shooting in 1080 25pn so fbc is disabled. The effect is seen in the viewfinder,lcd and in editor. I tried shooting in dvcproHD yesterday and its still there.

Its not the codec it must be something in the processing of the image as apparently the HPX300 can do it too.

If your locked down on a tripod you wont see it, if your hand holding the cam wide open and you have something in the foreground and a nice cloudy sky behind it you will see the effect. Its mainly only visible on full wide angle.

Im hoping some other 370/371 owners can test this by shooting some wide open hand held shots.Very small movements set it off, fast pans dont seem to. Would be nice to find out what it is

 

[GaryNattrass]

Does it still do it if you put more light on the poster? it may be that the grey of the moon is close to the noise floor of the camera and the CAC or processing is having difficulty dealing with it.

 

[Erik Olson]

Yes AVC-I 1080/24pN on the 300, so FBC is off.

 

[Garion]

Does it still do it if you put more light on the poster? it may be that the grey of the moon is close to the noise floor of the camera and the CAC or processing is having difficulty dealing with it.

My second try was to go outside midday this weekend and i filmed my back garden including about 50% of the sky in the shot.

It did the same thing again, the trees in my garden moved at a differant rate to the sky.

beautiful bright blue sky and white clouds shifting ever so slightly differant to the trees in my garden.. I asked one of my family to look at the footage buy they didnt notice it till i pointed it out.

Guess im being a bit fussy, ironically i wouldnt mind if the whole picture did it in unison but its very odd when is shifts wwithin it self so to speak lol

 

[mountainmedia]

Its not the codec it must be something in the processing of the image as apparently the HPX300 can do it too.

Wait, wait, wait. I thought the HPX370 was a completely different camera from the HPX300??? I thought they shared nothing in the way of internal processing! Panasonic told us so. That's why you can't upgrade an HPX300 to an HPX370...right? Hmmm...

Sorry - just a few remaining sour grapes on my part.

As for the issue at hand, I too have seen this with my 300. It's a very subtle effect and - as such - isn't noticed most of the time. Like everyone else, I'm curious to learn the cause.

 

[Lumiere]

I wonder where is the tech guru's on this site, and why they not give an attention on this problem?

 

[GaryNattrass]

I just did a lot of tests with one of my 301's this morning and whilst I could see a slight bit of this in the viewfinder when I play the clip back it is OK.

I had the camera set at AVC Intra 100 1920x1080i 25np with the BBC film settings and shutter 1/50.0

Could this be the first bug on the 371? Certainly on my camera it was no where near as bad as the original clip and as said it went during playback and is not there on rendered clips out of final cut pro.

What firmware do you have on the 371? I am on 9.34 for the 301.

 

[steve phillipps]

This is probably not correct, but what it makes me wonder is whether in order to get the really high spec the 371 has (ie 1920x1080 4:2:2) it is using software trickery to make up for what must be cheaper hardware - as let's face it, this is an amazingly cheap camera really. And these software tricks get fooled occasionally and produce odd phenomena - still a small price to pay for this level of performance though.
Come on Panny techs, give us an insight here!
Steve

 

[Garion]

What firmware do you have on the 371? I am on 9.34 for the 301.

Hi Gary, my 371 firmware is 12.06-00-0.00

 

[Garion]

This is probably not correct, but what it makes me wonder is whether in order to get the really high spec the 371 has (ie 1920x1080 4:2:2) it is using software trickery to make up for what must be cheaper hardware - as let's face it, this is an amazingly cheap camera really. And these software tricks get fooled occasionally and produce odd phenomena - still a small price to pay for this level of performance though.
Come on Panny techs, give us an insight here!
Steve

Agree Steve i love my 371, i couldn't have got this much camera from any other company. Even second hand i was looking at old Sony pdw 330's etc and by the time i had bought all the accesories it would have cost me way more.

Due to a rare occurance of good weather here in the UK today i snuck my camera into work and ran around my local docks handheld to grab some quick footage.

Had a great time but due to heat and perspiration i did fog up the viewfinder a few times

I will post it on Vimeo prob tomorrow evening as i dont think my free account will let me till then.

 

[Lumiere]

This is probably not correct, but what it makes me wonder is whether in order to get the really high spec the 371 has (ie 1920x1080 4:2:2) it is using software trickery to make up for what must be cheaper hardware - as let's face it, this is an amazingly cheap camera really. And these software tricks get fooled occasionally and produce odd phenomena - still a small price to pay for this level of performance though.
Come on Panny techs, give us an insight here!
Steve

Totally agree Steve;

I also used panny cameras all of my life and i really appriciated with them, but i don't understand what happened for last years, panny started to decide different path then anyother companies which is not bad ,maybe. But to pay 12.000£ for a package of hpx371 really make think 3 times on it. Especially when i start to hear these kind of things. And the most weird think is, we all know when the topic comparing with other brands there are few techs, and guru's always turn the light on for us, but i cant see none of them around this issue..

 

[Barry_Green]

Lumiere, if you're trying to call me out... I don't have an HPX300 or an HPX370. I have no way to test or experiment with it, and therefore nothing to offer. What do you expect me to do? I looked at it and have no idea what that can be. I've sent the thread on to the Panasonic product manager to look at. What else do you expect?

 

[steve phillipps]

Not sure if Lumiere meant you Barry, but thanks for passing it on to the Panny techs - that's certainly who I was meaning.
Steve

 

[ullanta]

This isn't rolling shutter (IMHO).. this really looks like a motion
prediction codec artifact.
jeff

It does kinda look like that... but I don't think there would be any issues of motion prediction in an intraframe codec!

I don't know the exact specs of the camera... but does it allow DRS in the mode you're using, and, if so, was it on? Could any image stabilization features be involved?

 

[Lumiere]

Lumiere, if you're trying to call me out... I don't have an HPX300 or an HPX370. I have no way to test or experiment with it, and therefore nothing to offer. What do you expect me to do? I looked at it and have no idea what that can be. I've sent the thread on to the Panasonic product manager to look at. What else do you expect?

I didn't call you especially, but you're of course one of the techical gru around here which people trust more than other's thoughts. And when i had these kind of conflicts on my mind i would rather to hear it from someone i believe in. Someone should give a detailed technical explanation which most of us can not do. And this persons name doesn't need to be Barry Green, particularly..I thought you or the other experts may not see this issue and wonder why no body give some attention.Because the problem sounds weird.

But you already did, i didn't know it, sorry for the expectation by the way...

 

[Garion]

It does kinda look like that... but I don't think there would be any issues of motion prediction in an intraframe codec!

I don't know the exact specs of the camera... but does it allow DRS in the mode you're using, and, if so, was it on? Could any image stabilization features be involved?

No DRS will not work in 1080-50i 25pn which i was filming in and apart from a sore shoulder theres no other stabilizer involved (although i could do with one).

The more i think of it the effect although small is more of a reverse jello!

Normally i'd expect to see a shifting wobble effect at the telephoto end with faster moves not full wide with small subtle ones lol. The more i use the camera the more i see that most of the original moans about it seem to have gone or be lessened to the point where i dont see them.

I reckon they have just overcompensated in the "lets fix the 1080 skew/jello" thing and created a new "baby jello effect". Like ive said before locked down on a tripod you wont see it, but if you like to wander around like me it could be amusing.

I posted a new video on this forum all handheld, i can see this effect in one part of the footage.I wonder if anyone else has spotted it yet ?

 

[Erik Olson]

No DRS will not work in 1080-50i 25pn which i was filming in and apart from a sore shoulder theres no other stabilizer involved (although i could do with one).

I reckon they have just overcompensated in the "lets fix the 1080 skew/jello" thing and created a new "baby jello effect".

I posted a new video on this forum all handheld, i can see this effect in one part of the footage.I wonder if anyone else has spotted it yet ?

But it also manifests in the 300, so it isn't specific to one generation of the camera or another.