HPX370 First Look
- Thread starter Larry Rutledge
- Start date
Joe Calabrese
Well-known member
Wow, that was quick!
Nice write-up. I can't wait to see it on some show-room floors.
Nice write-up. I can't wait to see it on some show-room floors.
How about DOF? And Bokeh? One thing I liked about the EX3 1/2 chips was the bigger control of DOF. True, the HPX300 has a bigger zoom, but the 1/3 chips still lose on this department. I tried the HPX300 and the EX1, and on that generation of cameras, the EX1 clearly had more control over DOF.
It seems like this comment of 1/2 chips vs 1/3 is a minor difference, but it clearly is not. Aren't 1/3 chip cameras certified Bronze, independent of the codec they record, for Discovery or National Geo programming? Or am I mistaken?
Is Panasonic's U.L.T. equivalent to Sony's backlighted Exmor R? If this is true, then the EX still can be improved, because current EX models have the basic Exmor chip. EX1R was supposed to have Exmor R chip, it does not. But rumors are that Sony will soon unveil a new model in the EX family with the backlighted chip, and the status quo will be restored.
I am no Sony's fanboy, but there's no replacement for displacement. With all things being equal bigger chip wins, and I have no reason to believe that Panasonic has better technology than Sony.
I am no Sony's fanboy, but there's no replacement for displacement. With all things being equal bigger chip wins, and I have no reason to believe that Panasonic has better technology than Sony.
Joe Calabrese
Well-known member
My viewpoint on this is: Panasonic mostly uses CCDs with lower resolution, and uses pixel shifting to achieve the standard HD resolutions. JVC does the same things (but different up conversion method). However, more of that resolution is kept as the camera compresses it, since Panasonic has some of the highest quality compression formats available in cameras under 100k.
Sony advertises its cameras as full raster because they use full raster CMOS chips. Allows them to advertise more actual "resolution", but since they use old MPEG-2 based compression formats (except for their HDCAM-SR format), a lot of that resolution is lost.
filmat11
Well-known member
When you mentioned "beauty shots ", did you mean Kevin Railsback -- aka- N8ture ?
His work is outstanding.
Are you putting together some sort of video , perhaps with Panasonic, about wildlife shooting or the use of the HPX-300 ?
When will it come out ?
Still trying to tweak my 300 to it'd best abilities. Sure wish Panasonic would allow an upgrade fix, to match that of the 370's spec's. But I doubt it.
His work is outstanding.
Are you putting together some sort of video , perhaps with Panasonic, about wildlife shooting or the use of the HPX-300 ?
When will it come out ?
Still trying to tweak my 300 to it'd best abilities. Sure wish Panasonic would allow an upgrade fix, to match that of the 370's spec's. But I doubt it.
Bassman2003
Veteran
First, thanks for the tests Barry. Good to have examples to compare.
Second, it is interesting how the EX examples had a redish tint to the color. WB on the EX series seems to be strange. I often wonder if the camera picks the correct numbers. The 370 had much better whites.
Third, I will still stand up and say "but it has 1/2" chips". Sorry, but as much as Panasonic wants to tells us they are the same, they are not. Maybe not a huge difference, but the whole world is on focus with a 1/3" chip camera. That is just closer to a consumer look imho. The 370 dance footage looks great, but $9,200 for a 1/3" chip camera before all of the memory is pretty rich. I thought CMOS was supposed to be cheaper!
Fourth, "The skew is fixed" should be re-phrased to "the skew still exists and is now been reduced to the EX level". Sorry, but for the new wonder camera, call me selfish, I would want a camera without any skew. Is that too much to ask? Older -'boo, hiss'- CCDs did not have skew. Why are we being continued to be asked as camera buyers to deal with this compromise?
Fifth, it is kind of hard to take all of this seriously when not too long ago the HPX-300 was supposed to be the camera everybody needs to buy. Like Sony with the $25,000 1/2" camera telling the news folks 1/2" is going to replace 2/3" then coming out with the 2/3" PMW-700 the next year. As a consumer, the hype really starts to seem disingenuous.
The camera is nice though!
O.K., start slinging the arrows!
Second, it is interesting how the EX examples had a redish tint to the color. WB on the EX series seems to be strange. I often wonder if the camera picks the correct numbers. The 370 had much better whites.
Third, I will still stand up and say "but it has 1/2" chips". Sorry, but as much as Panasonic wants to tells us they are the same, they are not. Maybe not a huge difference, but the whole world is on focus with a 1/3" chip camera. That is just closer to a consumer look imho. The 370 dance footage looks great, but $9,200 for a 1/3" chip camera before all of the memory is pretty rich. I thought CMOS was supposed to be cheaper!
Fourth, "The skew is fixed" should be re-phrased to "the skew still exists and is now been reduced to the EX level". Sorry, but for the new wonder camera, call me selfish, I would want a camera without any skew. Is that too much to ask? Older -'boo, hiss'- CCDs did not have skew. Why are we being continued to be asked as camera buyers to deal with this compromise?
Fifth, it is kind of hard to take all of this seriously when not too long ago the HPX-300 was supposed to be the camera everybody needs to buy. Like Sony with the $25,000 1/2" camera telling the news folks 1/2" is going to replace 2/3" then coming out with the 2/3" PMW-700 the next year. As a consumer, the hype really starts to seem disingenuous.
The camera is nice though!
O.K., start slinging the arrows!
You're apparently not the target market
IMO 10k is a good price range. the camera includes lots of stuff feature for broadcast ENG.. not just the sensor. (i wish it would go lower to $7k range though!)
I do hope they release the same sensor minus all the stuff.. (hpx170 down to $4k!)
e.g. 370 sensor on an hpx170. I dont think that cam would kill the market..
itll be the EX1 of panasonic as the 370 will be the EX3 for panasonic
p.s. 1/3 != consumer look
Last edited:
Barry_Green
Moderator
That is exactly who I was referencing, yes. Kevin is a naturally gifted talent, an incredible shooter, and an amazing nature cinematographer. I can make a decent shot, but I'm no Kevin Railsback!
Barry_Green
Moderator
I used manual white balance, and yes I thought the HPX370's white balance was a tad more accurate.
The only metric where the Sony can be said to outperform the HPX370 is in the ability to get a slightly shallower DOF. But the difference is slight. It's not anywhere near as much as the difference between 1/3" and 2/3". But yes, there is a difference. Opening up the iris on the HPX370 by 1 stop and you will equalize that difference.
Fine -- point was, ALL the CMOS cameras have skew, and now the HPX370 has comparable skew, instead of standing out for having much worse/more noticeable skew.
Because you, as camera buyers, keep buying into the "native pixel count" argument. And you can't do that, with CCD, on 1/3" chips. And you can't even do it on 1/2" chips unless you use interlaced chips, like the Sony XDCAM-HD lineup. So if you want native pixel count, you are going to have to go with CMOS, and CMOS = skew. End of story.
Bassman2003
Veteran
Is there no way to read the sensor differently to get rid of skew?
I have heard about rolling vs global shutter but what about simultaneously reading the sensor in smaller, multiple areas instead of top to bottom in one swoop? Then re-compiling the frame after the sensor.
I know a lot of people don't seem to care about this. But the fact that you can go out and shoot some trucks going by in a test and every frame is diagonal is just not an attribute of a pro cam in my book. I am speaking about all CMOS, not just the 370.
What if you were hired to go shoot trucks? You would have to rent a camera to get the job done without it being diagonal. I know, a camera for every job... Well that makes a case for not buying a camera because who can afford a camera for every job?
I have heard about rolling vs global shutter but what about simultaneously reading the sensor in smaller, multiple areas instead of top to bottom in one swoop? Then re-compiling the frame after the sensor.
I know a lot of people don't seem to care about this. But the fact that you can go out and shoot some trucks going by in a test and every frame is diagonal is just not an attribute of a pro cam in my book. I am speaking about all CMOS, not just the 370.
What if you were hired to go shoot trucks? You would have to rent a camera to get the job done without it being diagonal. I know, a camera for every job... Well that makes a case for not buying a camera because who can afford a camera for every job?
xmephestox
Bronze Member
u want global shutter cmos? you'll have to get this
http://www.abelcine.com/articles/in...antom-flex-next-gen-camera&catid=47&Itemid=61
it's very expensive to have global shutter cmos. the cooling, the hardware, everything. it's expensive. not an easy market indeed, best to just try to find a camera that suits most of your needs. will be awhile before you get a camera that will suit all your needs, if ever.
http://www.abelcine.com/articles/in...antom-flex-next-gen-camera&catid=47&Itemid=61
it's very expensive to have global shutter cmos. the cooling, the hardware, everything. it's expensive. not an easy market indeed, best to just try to find a camera that suits most of your needs. will be awhile before you get a camera that will suit all your needs, if ever.
Joe Calabrese
Well-known member
And price. Even if you could make a 1/3" CCD with full raster 1080p, it would be ridiculously expensive. That's what makes this camera affordable and full raster: CMOS chips.
swap?
swap?
Sounds like maybe I should've gotten you to drop off the 370 instead of the EX3? Folks, you can't imagine my surprise and delight to discover Barry Green standing in my office, using my camera in a test last weekend. I'm glad the EX3 stood it's ground for the most part. I'll keep my DOF any day....but thanks Barry, nice to meet you, and looking forward to having you as a neighbor!
swap?
Sounds like maybe I should've gotten you to drop off the 370 instead of the EX3? Folks, you can't imagine my surprise and delight to discover Barry Green standing in my office, using my camera in a test last weekend. I'm glad the EX3 stood it's ground for the most part. I'll keep my DOF any day....but thanks Barry, nice to meet you, and looking forward to having you as a neighbor!
Barry_Green
Moderator
Anyone needing camera rental in the Houston area, definitely give Chris a call, she was fantastic and very accomodating!
Otis Grapsas
Bronze Member
The resolution of this camera and the sensor size can be had for less than $1,000 but the combination of format quality and resolution is unique and competes with the 40,000 euro camcorders. Those are CCD and 2/3" though, but you can't have everything at this price. Anyone considering this camcorder is after the format it uses. We tend to expect everything from a product these days, but that's simply impossible. I get this type of question all the times in my camera project. We can get shallow DOF with a $2000 dslr, yes, but with rolling shutter and GOP compression. We can get the same resolution for $600, yes, but with rolling shutter and GOP compression. We can get 2/3" CCD from Panasonic for slightly more, yes but with low resolution and compression. We can get a Scarlet for the same money, yes but with rolling shutter. Etc, etc.
One should always consider the problem at hand and the limitation he cannot work around. If that's rolling shutter, a low resolution Panasonic CCD camcorder will fix it. If it's DOF, a DSLR will fix it. If it's low resolution, even a $600 consumer camcorder will fix it. If it's GOP compression in difficult scenes, this HPX will fix it.
One should always consider the problem at hand and the limitation he cannot work around. If that's rolling shutter, a low resolution Panasonic CCD camcorder will fix it. If it's DOF, a DSLR will fix it. If it's low resolution, even a $600 consumer camcorder will fix it. If it's GOP compression in difficult scenes, this HPX will fix it.