HPX250: HPX250 vs AC160 + Atomos Samurai?

J

jbklynnyc

Active member
I'm interested in purchasing one of these cameras and am leaning toward the AC160 because I prefer the convenience of SD cards.

I'm curious to know from a practical perspective on a day-to-day level if using something like the Atomos Samurai with this camera is viable too, as an option for having higher quality recordings?

I would be shooting a documentary, handheld.
 
Using a Samurai with a 160 would indeed provide for higher-quality recordings than the onboard codec, because it would give you 4:2:2 color sampling instead of the onboard 4:2:0, and a high-bandwidth intraframe codec instead of a long-GoP codec.

But it still wouldn't equate to an HPX250, because it'd still be an 8-bit system. The HPX250 records 10-bit to AVC-Intra.

There would be a few other differences, such as that the HPX250 has magnified focus assist and the AC160 doesn't; the AC160 has 1080/60p overcranking and the HPX250 doesn't, etc...

I guess the point is: if you like the AC160 and think that you'd rather have SDHC recording, but with the capability to have higher-quality recordings when necessary, then sure, an AC160+Samurai seems like a perfectly reasonable choice. But that doesn't make it an HPX250, the HPX250 is still a different beast.
 
Also, if you need to shoot to a broadcast codec for the documentary, I would think it easier or more ergonomic to be running and gunning without the added recorder,
 
Barry_Green said:
Using a Samurai with a 160 would indeed provide for higher-quality recordings than the onboard codec, because it would give you 4:2:2 color sampling instead of the onboard 4:2:0, and a high-bandwidth intraframe codec instead of a long-GoP codec.

But it still wouldn't equate to an HPX250, because it'd still be an 8-bit system. The HPX250 records 10-bit to AVC-Intra.

There would be a few other differences, such as that the HPX250 has magnified focus assist and the AC160 doesn't; the AC160 has 1080/60p overcranking and the HPX250 doesn't, etc...

I guess the point is: if you like the AC160 and think that you'd rather have SDHC recording, but with the capability to have higher-quality recordings when necessary, then sure, an AC160+Samurai seems like a perfectly reasonable choice. But that doesn't make it an HPX250, the HPX250 is still a different beast.
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barry-

no focus assist on the 160?

i'm stunned.

that seems a rather short sighted way for the good folks at panasonic to distinguish the 160 from the 250.

8bit vs 10bit makes sense, so does the lack of avc-intra 100. all reasonable in the 250 but not necessary in the 160.

focus assist is absolutely necessary.

i'm disappointed in pannie and i hardly ever say that.

:undecided

ymmv

be well

rob
smalltalk productions
 
robfilms said:
no focus assist on the 160?
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There are focus assist tools, there's the EVF DTL, the focus-in-red, and the focus bar. But no magnified focus assist.

that seems a rather short sighted way for the good folks at panasonic to distinguish the 160 from the 250.
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Has nothing to do with that. The AC160 is an AF100 with a fixed lens, and the AF100 doesn't have the capability for magnified focus assist, so the AC160 doesn't have it either. The HPX250 is an HPX370 in a handheld form factor, and the HPX370 has magnified focus assist, so the HPX250 does too. They're different hardware.

I'm profoundly annoyed that the AC160 (or AF100 for that matter!) don't have magnified focus assist, but it's the way that family of products is.
 
Barry, how does the 160 handle highlights--is chroma clipping present similar to AF100? Highlight handling in the HPX250 is my favorite feature of the camera, besides codec and lens. I've been watching footage I shot on our 250 on a 100" screen via 1080P DLP projection system and am amazed by how clean, sharp and free of over exposure artifacts it is. Really like what I'm seeing for the price point. Not afraid of clipping this camera, it's so much better than a 170/200A/500/AF100 in this regard--closer to Varicam highlight handling.
 
Do you think Panasonic will enable focus assist while recording on the HPX250? Having focus assist on the camera is nice, but not being able to use it while recording is a bummer.
 
THoff said:
Do you think Panasonic will enable focus assist while recording on the HPX250? Having focus assist on the camera is nice, but not being able to use it while recording is a bummer.
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Can the 370 do it? If not, I very much doubt it will be added to the 250.
 
Getting back to the Samurai (due out tomorrow), inasmuch as it only costs a couple hundred dollars more than two P2 cards, if you had limited resources would you buy the 250 with the Samurai and later add P2 or would you go with the P2 first?
 
The 160 handles overexposure exactly the same as the prior cameras and the AF100. It's an AF100 with a smaller sensor and a fixed lens.

The HPX250 is pretty awesome. Its processing is different (notice that you can use the knee in cinegamma... and that if you choose DRS, all your gamma changes just don't do anything anymore, and that it doesn't gain up the shadows and make a noisy image in DRS)... it's just different. I love P2 and have missed it. And of course the focus assist is most appreciated. But it's a grand more than the 160, doesn't have 1080 overcranking, and for some jobs SDHC just makes more sense than P2, so ... it's not an obvious choice for everyone.
 
I know what I'd do... no question, buy the P2 cards, use the camera as intended, and avoid having some external recorder hanging off the back with a separate battery that you need to keep track of, etc.

But that's just me. I wouldn't buy a P2 camera and then not use it as it's designed to be used, workarounds are of very limited appeal to me... others may feel differently. You're not going to get a better quality recording off the Samurai than off the P2 cards; I think a Samurai would make more sense on an AC160 (because at least then you'd be adding 4:2:2 so you'd be getting something more for your money, instead of just something different).
 
I bought the HPX250 so I would not have to deal with an external recorder. I was looking at the EX1R, but after you add Nanoflashes, reliable CF cards and batteries -- you've actually spent some money -- not to mention the add-on shoulder mount that you have to bolt that stuff onto. I'll stick with P2.
 
Totally agree--internal recording with AVC-Intra is the way to go. I'm tired of external recorders--we've had the nNovia and FireStore HDD's, now Ki Pros. I love our HPX2700 because it has five P2 slots--it's like carrying a case of tape on your shoulder! P2 internal recording is so reliable, and now with master quality images even in a palmcorder.

In my opinion, AF100 and FS100/F3 not having 4:2:2, 10-bit, I-Frame recording is a mistake, especially at the F3 price point. I know Panasonic will rectify this with large sensor cameras, just as they did with ENG and now palmcorder form factor small sensor cameras.

Those who don't understand P2 work flow advantages or AVC-Intra 100 advantages, typically haven't used either. AVC-Intra 100 gains one stop of latitude on our HPX2700 due to is lower noise floor. Panasonic needs to step up and give us an AF100 with a better front end and back end using P2 and Intra, and I hope to see a new large sensor Varicam that will be a cut price Alexa competitor, using 12-bit AVC-Ultra. They are losing the opportunity to make use of the Varicam name in digital cinema every day that goes by.
 
Dino said:
Totally agree--internal recording with AVC-Intra is the way to go. I'm tired of external recorders--we've had the nNovia and FireStore HDD's, now Ki Pros. I love our HPX2700 because it has five P2 slots--it's like carrying a case of tape on your shoulder! P2 internal recording is so reliable, and now with master quality images even in a palmcorder.

In my opinion, AF100 and FS100/F3 not having 4:2:2, 10-bit, I-Frame recording is a mistake, especially at the F3 price point. I know Panasonic will rectify this with large sensor cameras, just as they did with ENG and now palmcorder form factor small sensor cameras.

Those who don't understand P2 work flow advantages or AVC-Intra 100 advantages, typically haven't used either. AVC-Intra 100 gains one stop of latitude on our HPX2700 due to is lower noise floor. Panasonic needs to step up and give us an AF100 with a better front end and back end using P2 and Intra, and I hope to see a new large sensor Varicam that will be a cut price Alexa competitor, using 12-bit AVC-Ultra. They are losing the opportunity to make use of the Varicam name in digital cinema every day that goes by.
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I agree. If wishes were horses, I'd like an F3 front end recording to AVC Intra P2 for $10K.
 
Danny1280 said:
I agree. If wishes were horses, I'd like an F3 front end recording to AVC Intra P2 for $10K.
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Yes, all Sony had to do was an MPEG 2 codec, 8-bit, 50Mbps, 4:2:2 for the F3, never mind a great codec like Intra 100. But they chose to handicap the camera. The F3 is a lovely front end, but does have moire issues and the form factor isn't much better than a RED One--too much weight for a palmcorder without shoulder mounts and handles, counterweight, et al.

Imagine a S35 Varicam, shoulder mounted, but lighter than an Alexa, under $30K, AVC-Ultra, 120 fps..........
 
Barry_Green said:
But it's a grand more than the 160
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At B&H Photo, they are showing a price difference of only $575 between these two camcorders.

Perhaps the HPX250 is actually the best bargain of them all?

Besides all of the additional advanced features, you also get a 5 year warranty, instead of only 3 with the AG-AC160.

.
 
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LanceOregon said:
At B&H Photo, they are showing a price difference of only $575 between these two camcorders.

Perhaps the HPX250 is actually the best bargain of them all?

Besides all of the additional advanced features, you also get a 5 year warranty, instead of only 3 with the AG-AC160.
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Those are some pretty good points. At only $575 difference, that certainly makes the choice harder. It then becomes, mainly, P2 vs. SDHC, AVC-Intra vs. AVCHD, 10-bit vs. 8-bit, 4:2:2 vs. 4:2:0, 720p overcranking vs. 1080p overcranking... I think the cost-conscious will factor in the cost of a couple of P2 cards and decide that they're still better off with the 160, while those who need the best of the best will probably absorb the relatively minimal $575 price difference and gladly get the HPX250.

I've worked with them quite a bit and there's no absolutely clear-cut answer. 12 hours of continuous PH-mode recording for $190 on the AC160 is just something that a P2 camera isn't going to be able to do. But with AVC-I50 on a 64GB card, that's 2 hours continuous, and for 99% of us that's more than enough (we used to slog through 33 minute BetaSP tapes, remember... and the very longest DV recording you could get was 93 minutes and you had to use the sketchy LP mode to get that...) so two hours on a card is more than enough, and an hour of AVCI-100 is more than enough for most folks.

If someone has the budget, definitely get the HPX250 and get the P2 cards you need.
If someone needs long recording time and high-res overcranking, definitely get the AC160.
If someone's on a budget and can live without SDI, uncompressed audio, switchability and VFR, get the AC130.
 
I'm having a real tough time choosing. I need 3 cameras but can only afford 2 right now. About half my work is long format work - weddings , dances and the recording time concerns me as well as the cost of going p2. Other than flash banding it would seem the 130/160 would be the choice for that.
However, Part of my work is compositing and chroma keying and for that the 250 seems to be the choice. I was considering a 160 with external recorder.
So I was thinking a 130 and 250 if the 250 can do a longer lower quality recording ( 2hr) and would match the 130 footage close enough for weddings.
If not I was thinking a 160 and 130 if they can chroma key and composite good. Or maybe even just 2 130s.
How much does it cost to go p2? A card reader and a pair of the biggest cards?
 
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