HPX170 - A Second Look

I agree that PAL-NTSC would be a huge feature, especially for you Europeans here for film school :)

But wouldn't the DRS be THE best improvement possible?
Is it just code? I would suspect it is, I mean it has to be...

Jan, please, tell us it will be in the HPX-170. You would sell
tenths of thousands of them! It would obliterate the competition!
 
Okay, if it's not PAL/NTSC switchable, that's indeed a disappointment. But, let's just keep it in perspective though. Let's make a list of every PAL/NTSC switchable camcorder on the market, at the 170's expected price point or below:

1. Sony Z1U

Yep, that's it. That's the complete list. Nobody else offers it, and even though Sony did have it, they don't offer it in their subsequent models, the V7U and the Z7U. You have to go up to the $7790 MSRP price point to get switchability on the EX1, and even then it's not PAL/NTSC because the EX1 doesn't do either PAL or NTSC.

JVC has a little bit of it, they have 720/25P, but they don't offer NTSC/PAL switchability. And Canon has a factory upgrade option for the XLH1, I think they also offer it for the XHA1, right? So, not as-is, but as a $500 after-purchase upgrade.

So -- it would be lame of Panasonic to not offer the feature (especially after they advertised that it WOULD be possible). But it's not like the entire market has gone to NTSC/PAL switchable camcorders and Panasonic's some stubborn mule; there's really only one camera out there that offers it, and that one's interlaced-only.

I'd be fine with a factory upgrade option. But if it doesn't have even a factory upgrade option, that's the time I think it'd be appropriate to grab the pitchforks and torches.
 
As for DRS, it's my understanding that it's a hardware processing limitation. It apparently needs the faster framerate to work its magic. You can get it at 1080/60i or 720/60p, but it doesn't work at the slower frame rates.
 
When we talk about these cameras, don't we generally talk about the sub 10k market, so I think that's a little more accurate to compare the NTSC/PAL thing, rather than just saying cameras at or under the HPX price point.

The A1 is factory upgradeable...it is an option and has been an option on that camera for quite some time now, so let's not minimize it. It's an option, and has been one for quite some time now. Two options from Canon there, right?

Really, it would be A1, H1 (factory upgrade), Z1U, And the EX1 and EX3, right? The EX1 is obviously squared to be a direct competitor to the handheld p2 cameras as was evidenced in their silly marketing campaign a couple of years ago, so we should not exclude it from this discussion b/c it's price point is higher than the 170. It's still in the ballpark, and is obviously a competitor.

So, one could say that both Sony and Canon offer this feature at varying price points in the sub 10k range. Panasonic offers it in none of their sub 10k cameras (or we could just say, hand held form factor cameras).

So, while I agree with you in principle Barry, I think the current availability of that option was downplayed a touch. :)

Regardless, the trend certainly seems to be that the market is moving in that direction. Canon and Sony both seem to have adopted the NTSC/PAL mind set for their current and presumably future cameras in this market area. Panasonic is not.

The market is headed that way (IMO) and two of the big manufacturers offer it at a couple of different price points in the sub 10k hand held market, so.....

Later,
Jason
 
People throw around the "sub 10K" number, but I think there's a huge gulf between DVX buyers and HVX buyers, even though there's only a $2,000 price difference between 'em. So how much more of a gulf is there from a $5,200 HPX170 and a $10,000 camera? I don't see too many people struggling with a decision between an HPX170 and a, say, HPX500 ($8,000; buy batteries and a cheap lens and be "under $10,000"). It's a big stretch to put those in the same class. If someone wants to talk about $10,000 they should be talking about the HPX500, not the HPX170 -- and the HPX500 *is* switchable.

Price matters. A lot. If something costs more, it's reasonable to expect it to do more. If something costs less, I say it's not reasonable to expect it to do everything that the more expensive product does.

Therefore my assertion of comparing the 170 to products at its price point or below. Comparing it to products that are more expensive, and pointing out that the more-expensive product does more -- well, yeah. Sure. But how is that a fair comparison?

Even if you raise the price bracket to include the EX1, that makes a grand total of two cameras that do it, and even then the EX1 doesn't do it in SD because it doesn't even do SD.

I'm not "minimizing" the A1, I mentioned the A1, I just didn't remember for certain whether it had it but I said "I think they also offer it for the XHA1, right?"

So that's the point: if you want to buy a camera that does what you're asking the 170 to do built-in, well, you can't: there's only one on the market that offers it, and it's interlaced-only. If you ignore SD and stick to HD-only, then there's the EX1, but that is still $1800 more expensive (MSRP). But, if you're comfortable with 720-only, you could also get an HD110.

The factory upgrade is a different issue though. If they don't come out with switchability as a factory upgrade, that's when we would all have a major axe to grind and a case to make. If the $2,000 less expensive XHA1 has a factory upgrade option, then the HPX170 had darn well better offer it. On that I'm in total agreement.
 
I just want it to offer at least as a factory upgrade, and I"m happy with that.

I agree with what all you said... I'm just more thinking of all the threads that pop up here... a1 vs, hvx... hvx vs. ex1, etc, etc, etc.

Of the cameras that could be considered "competitors" the HPX170 (the cameras that potential buyers will likely also look at) the A1 (or some future incantation of it), the EX1, and the HVX200(a), and the HPX170 are generally going to be considered. Of those, only the panny cameras (as of right now) don't offer it as an option at all (be it out of the box, or factory upgrade).

I would also say that typically, once a camera manufacturer "breaks the ice" with a particular feature, it's reasonably safe to assume that they will continue the trend with all future cameras at a similar or higher price point/feature set... Meaning, we'll see a continued trend of some sort of pal/ntsc offering from canon and Sony at least, while Panny has yet to even "break the ice".

I'm in complete agreement about the factory upgrade, and would be 100% ok with that at the least. Out of the box, would be great, but at least offering it as an option to those who want it and getting on board with what I see an increasing trend is a requirement in my book.

Later,
Jason
 
Barry_Green said:
As for DRS, it's my understanding that it's a hardware processing limitation. It apparently needs the faster framerate to work its magic. You can get it at 1080/60i or 720/60p, but it doesn't work at the slower frame rates.
Click to expand...

Hardware processing power limitation? So the selection of the frames to be used out of the 60i, all the image processing and DRS are too much for the processor/s but take away the frame selection and/or other timing functions to get the 60i stream to line up with the target frame rate is too much... then get a faster processor!!! HECK LET ME OVERCLOCK MY 170!!! lol... I know testing stability and incompatibility for a different processors architecture is a pile of cash even for Panasonic, but there has to be a way to get a better batch of processors that can take a little higher clock!

Jan!!! PLEASEEEEEE!!!! I beg to you oh goddess of HD innovation, grant us one wish, just one more desperate race to the September finish line: Engage in talks with your processor suppliers and if you add a little to the tag EVERYONE will beg you to take their cash! I would guess that 75% of the buyers wouldn't think about it for more than 3 seconds after seeing the comparison pictures Barry has provided us... and the remaining 25% is half people that won't care and will pay and half people that will search for opinions from others and find nothing but BUY BUY BUY!!! DRS... oh... please!!!
 
Jason Ramsey said:
I just want it to offer at least as a factory upgrade, and I"m happy with that.
Click to expand...
Me too, and if it DOESN'T have it, that'd be just plain lame.

Of the cameras that could be considered "competitors" the HPX170 (the cameras that potential buyers will likely also look at) the A1 (or some future incantation of it), the EX1, and the HVX200(a), and the HPX170 are generally going to be considered. Of those, only the panny cameras (as of right now) don't offer it as an option at all (be it out of the box, or factory upgrade).
Click to expand...
Among that group, yep. Agreed.

I would also say that typically, once a camera manufacturer "breaks the ice" with a particular feature, it's reasonably safe to assume that they will continue the trend with all future cameras at a similar or higher price point/feature set...
Click to expand...
But that hasn't proved to be the case though. Sony added it to the Z1U, but then they took it away -- it's not available in the V1U or the Z7U. heck, for that matter, they added 24P to every model from the V1U on up, but on their new top-of-the-line XDCAM PDW700, they took it away. Panasonic put VFR on the 170, 200, and 500, but the 2000 and 3000 don't have it. So, no, I don't think the trend holds and every new product we kind of have to hold our breath to see what we're gonna get.

In our poll, I think it broke down to about 80% saying that either as in-the-box or as a factory upgrade, they've got to include it, right? I do hope they're listening, it'd be just silly to not have at least the upgrade option.
 
So this has a flip feature in the lcd, but any word on recording flipped? It seems that it wouldn't be much to program in, couldnt you do it with a firmware? It just seems like a simple, yet extremely practical feature.
 
zergtherobot said:
So this has a flip feature in the lcd, but any word on recording flipped? It seems that it wouldn't be much to program in, couldnt you do it with a firmware? It just seems like a simple, yet extremely practical feature.
Click to expand...

It does do a filp on the LCP, but not in the recording. To write those few lines of code that you say would make it work in the recording would require an additional 6-8 months of testing and proving that all of the other items in the display are not affected, and that it works in all of the formats and and additional encumbrance of a million or so dollars. This would translate to a higher price tag for the camera and I would need to sell more in order to pay for this increase in development cost. And the feature alone would not net me more sales. So it really isn't so easy to add stuff guys, there is a very critical balance that goes on inside of the camera and its recording device.

Hope this helps,

Jan
 
filmguy123 said:
Well, maybe the HPX-170a will record flipped as well, and offer PAL/NTSC switching out of the box, and DRS in more modes
Click to expand...


Well the HPX170a most likely will not offer NTSC/PAL switching out of the box as it is a world economy money exchange gray market issue. And the memory required to make the flipping and the DRS work in all modes would need to become cheap and small in order to fit. Good news is that is possible over the course of several years which is when an A version might happen.

Best,

Jan
 
So Jan, do you think there is a posibility that we can pay for a factory upgrade to NTSC/PAL?

And just a side note. Grey market goods as you all know, are never backed by the official suppliers (they ofcourse run the serial number), so if you buy a grey market product and it brakes, you have a problem.

It feels very unfair that technology is held back because a few people can't play by the rules, I mean the honest guy again has to suffer because of that.

sorry for the rant, I do appreciate all the information you share with us Jan, if we don't speak our minds, Panasonic won't know how we are affected by decisions they make.

One of the big things for me is us PAL users can't get to use 24p, and yes 25p is close but it's still a 4% difference, and the Panasonic (DVX100, HVX200 and I'm sure HPX170) is THEE best camera(s) when it comes to making films look like film. WE also want 24p.

Thanks,
Derrick
 
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Derrick_SA said:
So Jan, do you think there is a posibility that we can pay for a factory upgrade to NTSC/PAL?

One of the big things for me is us PAL users can't get to use 24p, and yes 25p is close but it's still a 4% difference, and the Panasonic (DVX100, HVX200 and I'm sure HPX170) is THEE best camera(s) when it comes to making films look like film. WE also want 24p.

Thanks,
Derrick
Click to expand...

The story isn't over just yet Derrick, there are 2 1/2 months yet at least for the US cameras, I am thinking the Europe cameras are not too far behind. I am lobbying very heavily for a Hometown upgrade at the service center. It isn't over till its over. ;-)

Best,

Jan
 
Hey Jan - I've done extensive market research in my immediate vicinity, and it indicates that any last-minute improvement efforts should be in getting DRS to work in 720p30!
 
The Memory required for the DRS function is pretty extensive. The larger cameras have room for multiple memory sites. The HPX170 does not. I do not see this as any remote possiblity.

Sorry,

Jan
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
\ I do not see this as any remote possiblity.
Click to expand...

So I figured. But... and I don't mean to be argumentative, and understand if you can't answer this... but how can memory OR processing be a problem in 720p30 vs 720p60? The image size is the same; thenumber of frames that need to be processed per time is halved....?
 
Does this mean, if it becomes pal switchable, an NTSC HVX will shoot 1440x1080 instead of 1280x1080 in Pal mode?
 
For me personally, the ability to switch between pal and ntsc would be a strong reason to get the hpx170. (I am from europe but live in the US at the moment.). My question is: Why can other brands offer this feature and panasonic can't. Other brands also have to deal with gray market cameras but they offer ntsc/pal switchable cameras anyway...
 
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