How to white balance at night?
- Thread starter HansK
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glassblowerscat
Well-known member
Re: How to white balance at night?
Night really seems to give its own colors to things. I don't know that I'd white balance at all, if I was going for realism. Are you lighting the shot yourself, or just going with available light? In any case, if you're going for white balancing without an available white source, your options are really:
1) Don't.
and
2) Bring one.
Night really seems to give its own colors to things. I don't know that I'd white balance at all, if I was going for realism. Are you lighting the shot yourself, or just going with available light? In any case, if you're going for white balancing without an available white source, your options are really:
1) Don't.
and
2) Bring one.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: How to white balance at night?
Yep -- bring something white with you. In a pinch, just wear a white t-shirt...
Yep -- bring something white with you. In a pinch, just wear a white t-shirt...
HansK
Veteran
Re: How to white balance at night?
I was working on some test shots in the city (San Francisco) the other night. Just walking around and trying out some shots. Lots of city light, flourescents, window lights, etc.. but no lighting of my own. I had a lot of trouble getting the colors to look good. I guess I need some more experimentation and try and remember to bring a white card.
I was working on some test shots in the city (San Francisco) the other night. Just walking around and trying out some shots. Lots of city light, flourescents, window lights, etc.. but no lighting of my own. I had a lot of trouble getting the colors to look good. I guess I need some more experimentation and try and remember to bring a white card.
J_Barnes
Veteran
Re: How to white balance at night?
The vast majority of lighting used in cities and commercial buildings is not a continuous spectrum source. Mercury Vapor, metal halide additive, sodium, etc.
They’re cheaper to operate in terms of lumens per watt, they last much longer then balanced and continuous spectrum lights, and they’re totally unsuitable for accurate color reproduction. In fact, sodium lamps are actually monochromatic, emitting light only in the yellow spectrum making it completely impossible to adjust or color correct them.
You could white balance your camera all you want, but even if you can get one of those light sources to approximate white light, you’re still not going to have truly accurate color reproduction.
You’ve got to either learn to love the whacked-out color, or kill the lamps and use your own.
The vast majority of lighting used in cities and commercial buildings is not a continuous spectrum source. Mercury Vapor, metal halide additive, sodium, etc.
They’re cheaper to operate in terms of lumens per watt, they last much longer then balanced and continuous spectrum lights, and they’re totally unsuitable for accurate color reproduction. In fact, sodium lamps are actually monochromatic, emitting light only in the yellow spectrum making it completely impossible to adjust or color correct them.
You could white balance your camera all you want, but even if you can get one of those light sources to approximate white light, you’re still not going to have truly accurate color reproduction.
You’ve got to either learn to love the whacked-out color, or kill the lamps and use your own.
J_Barnes
Veteran
Re: How to white balance at night?
No, there is no standard, as there is no standard for any commercial or industrial lighting.
Standardized lighting is generally more expensive, less efficient and shorter lived then the commercial and industrial solutions in wide use today. (it's cheaper to use low CRI lamps)
One thing that is important to remember, as Andre pointed out, is that our eyes do not see color very well in low light conditions, which when added to the visual tendency to see white-ish light as white...it adds up to a serious difference between your nighttime color perception and your camera or film's color rendition
A light might appear white to us at night when a camera proves it to be very far from what our eyes are perceving, thus it becomes very important to check all the illumination with your camera before shooting or use a three-color CTM when in doubt with film.
No, there is no standard, as there is no standard for any commercial or industrial lighting.
Standardized lighting is generally more expensive, less efficient and shorter lived then the commercial and industrial solutions in wide use today. (it's cheaper to use low CRI lamps)
One thing that is important to remember, as Andre pointed out, is that our eyes do not see color very well in low light conditions, which when added to the visual tendency to see white-ish light as white...it adds up to a serious difference between your nighttime color perception and your camera or film's color rendition
A light might appear white to us at night when a camera proves it to be very far from what our eyes are perceving, thus it becomes very important to check all the illumination with your camera before shooting or use a three-color CTM when in doubt with film.
GenJerDan
Veteran
Re: How to white balance at night?
There's also the problem of our brains "color-correcting" when we're on the spot, but not whne we're looking at it on the screen.
Meaning: even if the colors on the screen are exactly the way they were in person, it won't look right to us on the screen.
There's a grey and white cat that lives here at work. At night, under the sodium lamps, she's grey and yellowish, but I "see" her as white. If you shot a video of her, and made it realistic, I'd wonder why the cat was grey and yellow.
Dan
There's also the problem of our brains "color-correcting" when we're on the spot, but not whne we're looking at it on the screen.
Meaning: even if the colors on the screen are exactly the way they were in person, it won't look right to us on the screen.
There's a grey and white cat that lives here at work. At night, under the sodium lamps, she's grey and yellowish, but I "see" her as white. If you shot a video of her, and made it realistic, I'd wonder why the cat was grey and yellow.
Dan
XCheck
Veteran
Re: How to white balance at night?
I know we can't see colors very well under low light conditions. Our brain sort of compensates for that, fooling us we see a human skin color (for example), when the eye really see almost a B&W image under an unbalanced low light. If I shoot it so that the final image is also low light (i.e., low exposure), shouldn't I be able to fool the viewers brain in a similar way?
In other words, if the viewer is looking at an image of low-lit face under a sodium vapor light, is there an 'optimum' exposure where the color imbalance would be least distracting?
I am just speculating here... just an idea. This probably belongs to Cinematography section.
I know we can't see colors very well under low light conditions. Our brain sort of compensates for that, fooling us we see a human skin color (for example), when the eye really see almost a B&W image under an unbalanced low light. If I shoot it so that the final image is also low light (i.e., low exposure), shouldn't I be able to fool the viewers brain in a similar way?
In other words, if the viewer is looking at an image of low-lit face under a sodium vapor light, is there an 'optimum' exposure where the color imbalance would be least distracting?
I am just speculating here... just an idea. This probably belongs to Cinematography section.
J_Barnes
Veteran
Re: How to white balance at night?
Well, if it's a true sodium vapor light, the only way to color correct it in post is to completely dump your color information. That light only puts out frequencies in the yellow spectrum, and no amount of filtration or correction will add in the other parts of the spectrum to correct the light to white.
I think I understand what you're theorizing, to recreate on screen how our eyes see in the darkness...but there's a certain visual language that an audience accepts and part of that language is well lit night scenes that are either neutral or blue in color. In low lighting conditions, the Rods are the only photoreceptors active in our eyes, producing an image that is lacking in color rendition and far lower resolution then our daytime perception.
I’m not so sure that an audience would accept such images on screen, as they’d likely be interpreted more like surveillance camera footage then our typical human night vision.
Exposing in any certain fashion isn't going to correct the color abnormalities and there are certain light you just can't correct (ie- sodium lighting).
You’re essentially limited to correcting whatever lights you can correct, eliminating them completely, or living with the abnormal color reproduction. If you’re lucky enough to find a scene where all the lighting sources are the same, you can effectively correct it in post, but you’ll never have a picture that is completely color accurate due to the low CRI.
To my eyes, video is a tiny bit more forgiving then film, but I wouldn’t rely on that to afford me much latitude.
Well, if it's a true sodium vapor light, the only way to color correct it in post is to completely dump your color information. That light only puts out frequencies in the yellow spectrum, and no amount of filtration or correction will add in the other parts of the spectrum to correct the light to white.
I think I understand what you're theorizing, to recreate on screen how our eyes see in the darkness...but there's a certain visual language that an audience accepts and part of that language is well lit night scenes that are either neutral or blue in color. In low lighting conditions, the Rods are the only photoreceptors active in our eyes, producing an image that is lacking in color rendition and far lower resolution then our daytime perception.
I’m not so sure that an audience would accept such images on screen, as they’d likely be interpreted more like surveillance camera footage then our typical human night vision.
Exposing in any certain fashion isn't going to correct the color abnormalities and there are certain light you just can't correct (ie- sodium lighting).
You’re essentially limited to correcting whatever lights you can correct, eliminating them completely, or living with the abnormal color reproduction. If you’re lucky enough to find a scene where all the lighting sources are the same, you can effectively correct it in post, but you’ll never have a picture that is completely color accurate due to the low CRI.
To my eyes, video is a tiny bit more forgiving then film, but I wouldn’t rely on that to afford me much latitude.