How to tell a client they're not offering enough?

That's the thing when working with people not knowing things do cost. I would state my rate and expect to get paid just like the client states what he or she wants to be done.
 
pulp said:
Yeah, no. If this were The Price is Right, you would be disqualified for going over.
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And that would be a bad thing? This gig ain't worth your time if the guy can't pay a proper rate. Like Dave Grohl said, "Done, done, on to the next one"
 
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Gary Huff said:
Frankly, that's his fault. If he drags his heels and then only wants to pay you some ridiculous amount at the last minute with no other option to turn to, that's his lack of professionalism, not yours.
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I definitely understand that, and honestly, I agree. But as I said, I know he's a nice dude who's used to getting a "student's rate," and having a student tell him yes any time he books last minute. This isn't his kind of business; the man sells running gear. I can usually get pretty frustrated with people, but I know he means no harm, and I know the average person doesn't understand the kind of compensation videographers expect or require, and they think they're regular service guys, book a few days in advance and they'll be there. I'd love to teach him otherwise with this experience, but I've gotta do it carefully or it'll reflect poorly on me.
 
pulp said:
I can usually get pretty frustrated with people, but I know he means no harm,
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pulp, this man stiffed you for payment that you agreed upon in good faith. If you're going to be this naive, then perhaps you should consider another line of work.
 
Unfortunately, Gary is right. This is a poor way to go about doing business. I realize that you might need to take the job for financial reasons, otherwise the discussion wouldn't have gone on for this long. You say he has good pull with the other local businesses? What happens when they go up to him and tell him, "Wow! Great video of "X Event". How much did pulp charge you?" His response will be, "$15/hr". Now what? Your rate's been set for you and good luck trying to get out of that. Of course you can claim it was your "charitable rate" or whatever you'd like, but a precedent will already have been set.

It really has nothing to do with teaching HIM a lesson and more so about you making sure you charge appropriately for your services.

Kegan

EDIT: It doesn't matter what "the average person" knows about videography cost. You have equipment you have to buy and skills you have to learn. This is an EXTREMELY valuable industry and you'd be surprised at how many people actually know this. The ones that don't just aren't worth your time.
 
Gary Huff said:
pulp, this man stiffed you for payment that you agreed upon in good faith. If you're going to be this naive, then perhaps you should consider another line of work.
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I didn't think being incredibly forward about expecting payment, and starting a thread to discuss how to go about it the best way, would be considered naive. We must have different definitions.

Kegan said:
Unfortunately, Gary is right. This is a poor way to go about doing business. I realize that you might need to take the job for financial reasons, otherwise the discussion wouldn't have gone on for this long. You say he has good pull with the other local businesses? What happens when they go up to him and tell him, "Wow! Great video of "X Event". How much did pulp charge you?" His response will be, "$15/hr". Now what? Your rate's been set for you and good luck trying to get out of that. Of course you can claim it was your "charitable rate" or whatever you'd like, but a precedent will already have been set.

It really has nothing to do with teaching HIM a lesson and more so about you making sure you charge appropriately for your services.

Kegan

EDIT: It doesn't matter what "the average person" knows about videography cost. You have equipment you have to buy and skills you have to learn. This is an EXTREMELY valuable industry and you'd be surprised at how many people actually know this. The ones that don't just aren't worth your time.
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Well, since I'm clearly, from this discussion and what I've already said, NOT taking $15/hr, that seems like a non-issue.
 
Sorry, I missed the part where you mentioned that you're standing by $75/hr. Good for you!

Kegan
 
Personal bickering has been deleted.
David had already warned to stop the snarkiness.

If this thread seems pointless to any of you then you are invited to leave this alone and instead participate in any of the other 250,000+ threads we have on this site.
There are some, including the OP, who are still getting value out of this discussion.

Getting proper rates and respect from clients is a difficult thing to navigate when starting out.
It can be awkward, frustrating, and uncomfortable. This topic is one that is useful not only to the OP, but to any number of lurking members that are just starting out their careers.
It would do everyone some good to remember to exhibit some patience and understanding.

Please keep this on topic and unemotional.
Any further personal remarks will be removed with possible consequences.

Thanks.
 
pulp said:
I didn't think being incredibly forward about expecting payment, and starting a thread to discuss how to go about it the best way, would be considered naive. We must have different definitions.
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I was referring to your comment about him meaning no harm. He's already illustrated that he has no qualms with hiring you to work for him, then not paying. Frankly, I would require him to pay what he owes, then the money up front for the second gig before I would even consider it. If he thinks that's unfair, then perhaps he should learn to pay his bills next time.
 
Agree with the above. But IMO your wasting your time with clients who pay so little. You and gear for $15/hr? Are you crazy? Way too little. What happens if your gear takes a 'header' off your stix? Is he going to pay for the repair? Nope- your rates should reflect all the risk you take + your experience. For reference we pay our PA's $150-200/day and they've got no gear investment....just help out on set where needed.

It is not your problem how much budget he's got and to Hell with the politics. Spend the time developing YOUR client list and quit waisting it with this guy- who will probably stiff you again. If he 'balks' send that BLIGHT to your competition and let him waste their time.
 
I don't normally freelance, but when I do I start negotiation with my standard rate scales and 50% payment upfront. another 25% at 75% completion, the last 25% at delivery. a client has to demonstrate he has a budget to begin with.
 
Why even work for a guy who already stiffed you?

Tell him to pay you for the previous job in full, and then take 50% of the current job up front, with the other 50% due upon receipt of the footage.
 
Well, he had been emailing me every 10 minutes or so, until I told him I usually work for between $100-150 an hour, but would do $75 because it's for charity. He has yet to email me since. That may have solved that.
 
Good to see everyone got you great info, i of course agree with the sage advice, and can also give some additional perspective and ways to handle these 'clients':

It doesn't matter what the work is, charity, etc... your time AND your equipment is worth money. If they ask for a lower price, then you can ask what they are offering in exchange? They as the client usually have a direct benefit from your work, while you the worker are only benefiting from the pay. And please when they say anything about it being a good 'networking' opportunity, kindly mention that when you're on the job, you're ON. THE. JOB. and on top of that networking has no guaranteed benefit, it's all chance. and if you did work all based on the 'chance' you'll get money somehow out of it, you'll die of starvation before long.

And on the note of equipment, if i do feel inclined to be generous for charity or w/e, i'll tell the client that i will charge them only for the equipment rental costs. and it is this that i draw the absolute line. NO ONE, for any reason whatsoever, should be doing work for less than what your equipment costs to rent. PERIOD. no ifs, ands, charities, or buts.

And also be strict about your rates. i don't even do hourly anymore, it's half or full day. if your rate is 100/hr and they only want you for an hour, how much effort to cost ratio can you justify? And don't make your half day rate 1/2 your full day rate. make it 60-70%, because you'll likely not be able to take on any other jobs that day.

And as others stated, deposits are a very good idea. If they BS that they forgot their checkbook or any other excuses: DO. NOT. BUDGE. make your terms clear to them three times in writing/email format and state that if they do forget their means of payment you will not be able to continue.

There will always be crappy clients, and crappy service providers to undercut us, but if we the proper professionals draw the moral and ethical lines, we can save ourselves a lot of headache.

-D
 
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