How to tell a client they're not offering enough?

P

pulp

Active member
I've got a client who I've worked with before. He is friends with some guys I know, and they told me he was good for payment, an overall good guy. I shot for him once before and he stiffed me, avoided me for a while and eventually said, "hey, we've got another shoot coming up, that one I can definitely pay you for," which told me pretty straight forward that he didn't intend to pay for the work from before. That was fine. It was maybe an hour and a half of shooting, and a few hours of editing that content into clips for him to give to another editor. He's local guy and very worked in with the local business community, so it was better to smile and say "no problem" than to make a stink for a few hours of work. We never set a strict price because he was always so hard to communicate with, so, whatever. Next time, I will.

He asked me and the other videographer, the one who got me in touch with him originally, in a mass email asking if we wanted to work on the next event. I said sure, let me know the details. Well, today he emails me saying "the other videographer is busy, so you're the lead guy now if you want it." I said that's fine, and asked for more details. Well, it's in a few days... but he gave me the sob story about my being his only option, so I don't want to leave him dry. I said fine, and tried to talk details and prices.

He said $15 an hour for shooting and editing. That's... just too low. It's a high stress, high action event (a runner's marathon), so it's going to be a lot more work than $15 an hour, and for 5 hours of work, it's not even worth my dragging my gear out for $75 for that much physical commitment all day, not to mention how much moving my other commitments around will cost me... which is just about that, $75.

So, I'm trying to be sure we're firm on a price, and we have everything committed to... but I'm trying not to simply say, "sorry, that's not enough." It... isn't. It's not worth my leaving the house for $75, and it's not worth my running around for $15/hr and putting my equipment at risk. So, how do I say this politely and carefully without sounding like a money-hungry jerk?
 
To be honest, it sounds like you're making a mistake regardless of what he's paying you. He stiffed you before. What's stopping him from doing it again? Your "set price"? Nah, run away. This client isn't worth the headache.

Seriously, don't do it.

Kegan
 
You tell him id love to help you out... However my rate is x per hour. In My case 75 per hour .. Hal or Full Day plus camera rental. Have Fun!
 
In the future you need to discuss rates first, that would make these situations much easier.
This guy is giving you EVERY signal that he's trying to take advantage of you.

He has stiffed you in the past.
He avoids directly discussing rates.
He changes up the job at the last minute giving you more responsibility and pressure.

It doesn't sound to me like he has much respect or appreciation for you - so you shouldn't be walking on eggshells to keep him happy.
In fact, I'm curious as to why you're entertaining the idea of working for him again. Now he knows he can get away with stiffing you.

Regardless - you need to be properly compensated for your work in order to do a good job. There is nothing wrong with that and you won't come off like a money-hungry jerk.
The only problem here is that you didn't IMMEDIATELY tell him that was insultingly low the moment he said it. So now it feels awkward to go back and tell him "by the way, that's way too low of a rate."

But - if you don't say it, he's not going to.

The first question you have to answer yourself is - what is your rate?
When clients call me they ask me what my rate is - they don't dictate what I get paid, I do.
If someone can't afford your rate, then it's up to you to decide if it's worth working for less.... but only after your rate has been made clear.

As far as what exactly to tell this guy? I'd tell him directly that $15 dollars an hour is not in line with your usual rates, and you need X amount to be able to do the job.
If that's not within his budget tell him you completely understand and wish him luck with the project and tell him you hope you can work together in the future.

Odds are he'll never call you again - and odds are you'll be better off for it.
 
"Oh, wow, i think theres been some miscommunication here. My normal rates are $125/hr, so, no, I certainly can't do it for that. And given that you stiffed me on the last job, if you want me to do it I'm afraid I will have to insist on payment up front. Cash."

Substitute your rate for the $125 figure up there. But your Rate should ideally be at least that much.
 
And yes - Barry and Kegan are right - if you DO wind up working for him again you have every right to ask for payment up front given your last experience with him.
 
Luis Caffesse said:
The only problem here is that you didn't IMMEDIATELY tell him that was insultingly low the moment he said it. So now it feels awkward to go back and tell him "by the way, that's way too low of a rate."
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He just mentioned the pay in the last email. I started to type a response saying it was too little hourly, and overall an hourly rate doesn't make the shoot worth it unless it's much more per hour, but I thought I'd post here and see if anyone had any ways to gently tell someone that their offer is too low for a professional with their own equipment.

Luis Caffesse said:
And yes - Barry and Kegan are right - if you DO wind up working for him again you have every right to ask for payment up front given your last experience with him.
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The email I have typed thus far that I stopped typing to make this thread says that I'd need the payment for the shooting immediately after, and the payment for the editing before I turned in the final cut.
 
Gotcha - sorry, I assumed this had been a phone call.
In which case you need to decide how much you need to do the job - you can't just go back to him and say that it's "too low." You have to tell him what you need in order to do the job, and you have to know what your minimum is so you know when to walk away (because I guarantee you that whatever you tell him you need is going to be out of his budget, so he's probably going to come back with another lower offer, making it seem like he's really stretching himself because he's in a tight spot, and probably adding "that's really the most I can pay" at the end).

As far as how your payment is structured - do what you are comfortable with.
But I can tell you that unless I were in very dire need of work I would never consider working with anyone who had stiffed me in the past - BUT, if I did, I would only accept the job if I were paid upfront.
As far as the edit goes, you could always give him a watermarked version of the final cut and only deliver the final clean cut once you've been paid for the edit.
 
In line with what luis said I will add, First and I do mean First YOU and YOU Alone must know and respect your own work in regards to what taking on a job is, meaning from the time you carry your equipment to the car until the time you give the client a copy of the Final Product. I'm just getting started but what I have learned from this site is know your self worth. One thing I do believe 100% is that most of the B.S. That goes on in this business is initiated at the very point when a client is allowed by YOU to dictate your worth.
 
Luis Caffesse said:
Gotcha - sorry, I assumed this had been a phone call.
In which case you need to decide how much you need to do the job - you can't just go back to him and say that it's "too low." You have to tell him what you need in order to do the job, and you have to know what your minimum is so you know when to walk away (because I guarantee you that whatever you tell him you need is going to be out of his budget, so he's probably going to come back with another lower offer, making it seem like he's really stretching himself because he's in a tight spot, and probably adding "that's really the most I can pay" at the end).

As far as how your payment is structured - do what you are comfortable with.
But I can tell you that unless I were in very dire need of work I would never consider working with anyone who had stiffed me in the past - BUT, if I did, I would only accept the job if I were paid upfront.
As far as the edit goes, you could always give him a watermarked version of the final cut and only deliver the final clean cut once you've been paid for the edit.
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Thanks for the input. I really appreciate it. Work is very slow lately, and the work he stiffed me for before... well, as I said, I was too gentle with him, it was a very loose "hey, why don't you come out and shoot this" agreement, and I realized soon after that I had been too gentle and understanding to really make him do anything, unless I wanted to be that guy who shoots something for someone and then holds the material until it's paid for... which makes perfect sense to us, but to anyone else, it looks terrible. He's well connected with so many of the local businesses, and people I frequently work with, that I figured that was a bad choice, and seeing as I only billed him for I believe 5 hours work total, and asked next to nothing for it (less than $100 overall), it just wasn't worth tarnishing my name to get a tiny paycheck.

I should dig up the old emails and see exactly what he said when I asked for payment the first time.
 
It's understandable - the trick is to never put yourself in a situation where you have to hold footage hostage if you can help it.

There is nothing wrong with needing work, we've all been there.
But one thing I learned very early on is that there is a big difference between being busy and being successful in this business.
When I started out I was working myself to the bone and quickly realized I still didn't have enough money.
The reason was pretty obvious, I was underselling myself and my work.

I can understand not wanting to tarnish your reputation with this guy (because if he's connected you don't want him speaking badly of you, even if he's lying) - but on the other hand you have to ask yourself if a guy who stiffed you, regardless of the amount, is really a guy you think you'll be able to get more connections from.

My point is - if you're doing the job for networking purposes, that's fine... just make sure you can actually get some connections out of it.
If you're doing the job for money... make sure you're getting the right amount of money out of it.
And if you're doing the job for the love of it, that's fine too... because some project are worth it.

Just know WHY you're doing the job - and make sure you're getting out of it what you need to get out of it in order to feel good about your work.
You need to dictate what you are worth, and it's up to you to get what you feel is fair.

There will ALWAYS be people who try to get you for less than you're worth, because we all love getting a deal.
The only thing that can stop you from being taken advantage of is you, and you should never feel guilty or rude for having to tell a potential client that you are simply unable to work within their budget.
 
Luis Caffesse said:
It's understandable - the trick is to never put yourself in a situation where you have to hold footage hostage if you can help it.

There is nothing wrong with needing work, we've all been there.
But one thing I learned very early on is that there is a big difference between being busy and being successful in this business.
When I started out I was working myself to the bone and quickly realized I still didn't have enough money.
The reason was pretty obvious, I was underselling myself and my work.

I can understand not wanting to tarnish your reputation with this guy (because if he's connected you don't want him speaking badly of you, even if he's lying) - but on the other hand you have to ask yourself if a guy who stiffed you, regardless of the amount, is really a guy you think you'll be able to get more connections from.

My point is - if you're doing the job for networking purposes, that's fine... just make sure you can actually get some connections out of it.
If you're doing the job for money... make sure you're getting the right amount of money out of it.
And if you're doing the job for the love of it, that's fine too... because some project are worth it.

Just know WHY you're doing the job - and make sure you're getting out of it what you need to get out of it in order to feel good about your work.
You need to dictate what you are worth, and it's up to you to get what you feel is fair.

There will ALWAYS be people who try to get you for less than you're worth, because we all love getting a deal.
The only thing that can stop you from being taken advantage of is you, and you should never feel guilty or rude for having to tell a potential client that you are simply unable to work within their budget.
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I really do appreciate the input.

It's for a non-profit fundraiser, so I'm really having trouble deciding how much I should ask... I'll be shooting in SD, but it'll be a lot physical work to run around and capture the action all day, and I'm sure editing it into something will be quite a challenge with how little input he gives... but I don't want to ask a videographer's reasonable amount because someone like this will basically just see a guy asking 5-10x his original hourly offer for a charity event. But again, of course, as everyone has said, he's hiring me. I didn't ask for his work. It just seems he doesn't understand what the work is worth. I think the issue is that my friend is still a student, and has been doing great work for him for a very, very low rate for a good while now.
 
pulp said:
I don't want to ask a videographer's reasonable amount because someone like this will basically just see a guy asking 5-10x his original hourly offer for a charity event.
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Even people who work for charities get paid. Some quite well.
 
pulp said:
It's for a non-profit fundraiser, so I'm really having trouble deciding how much I should ask...
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Well, that can get a bit awkward - but Gary makes a good point, many nonprofits bring in quite a bit of money.

It just seems he doesn't understand what the work is worth.
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Unfortunately he may never understand... but he definitely won't know if you don't tell him.

If this is for a fundraiser is there anything else you could potentially get out of it?
Could you use this as promotion for yourself, having yourself listed as a sponsor of the event (via the donation of your services to the charity?).
I've done that in the past for nonprofits and used it as a way to get my name out to other businesses, etc.

Just throwing some ideas out there in case you don't want to just walk away from the job (which it sounds like you don't).
Either way, if you don't walk away, I don't see any way around the fact that you'll have to discuss rates with him very frankly.
 
Luis Caffesse said:
Well, that can get a bit awkward - but Gary makes a good point, many nonprofits bring in quite a bit of money.


Unfortunately he may never understand... but he definitely won't know if you don't tell him.

If this is for a fundraiser is there anything else you could potentially get out of it?
Could you use this as promotion for yourself, having yourself listed as a sponsor of the event (via the donation of your services to the charity?).
I've done that in the past for nonprofits and used it as a way to get my name out to other businesses, etc.

Just throwing some ideas out there in case you don't want to just walk away from the job (which it sounds like you don't).
Either way, if you don't walk away, I don't see any way around the fact that you'll have to discuss rates with him very frankly.
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I definitely considered that, but I'd say that, this short of notice, not much is going to happen in that regard. And honestly, if he thinks $15 is acceptable, then chances are as soon as I suggest a deal like that, he'll push the price closer to $15 along with whatever "sponsorship" I get out of it, which again, wouldn't be much, as I'm sure everything is already printed, and I know the website is live.

I sent him a very polite email saying that $15 was incredibly below standard for any working professional videographer, but that I don't want to leave him without someone to shoot it. I offered to discuss further tomorrow so I have the night to put together some ideas for a rate. I'll probably tell him around $75, which will seem outrageous to him, but I'm in no shape to spend all day running around and putting my camera at risk for $15 an hour. I'll tell him $125 is my standard, and $75 is my compromise. I feel like walking away with $300-400 is pretty fair.
 
pulp said:
I sent him a very polite email saying that $15 was incredibly below standard for any working professional videographer, but that I don't want to leave him without someone to shoot it.
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Frankly, that's his fault. If he drags his heels and then only wants to pay you some ridiculous amount at the last minute with no other option to turn to, that's his lack of professionalism, not yours.
 
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