How many Andromeda DVX's?

Justin_Kirch said:
to keep pushing this, i think the workflow for the andromeda is a alot less cumbersome when it comes to documentary footage than the HVX. you can look at the rise and falls of P2 cards and being tethered, but overall, isn't it more convenient to having a drive contantly capture than having to swap out P2 cards every 8 minutes? that just seems like a pain to me.
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But isn't that comparing apples to alligators, P2 cards versus hard drives? Wouldn't a better workflow comparison be Andromeda with a laptop and hard drive versus an HVX with any number of the high storage units (ie Firestore) that have come out/are coming out? In that flatland workflow comparison, an HVX would certainly have a better documentary form factor. For run and gun type doc work like I normally do, the Andromeda mod sounds mostly untenable, too many things that could go wrong - many that have absolutely nothing to do with the mod itself, just the workflow and form factor.
 
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I don't think anyone has donated their HVX to them for testing out yet. :(

Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Duct Tape Films said:
But isn't that comparing apples to alligators, P2 cards versus hard drives? Wouldn't a better workflow comparison be Andromeda with a laptop and hard drive versus an HVX with any number of the high storage units (ie Firestore) that have come out/are coming out? In that flatland workflow comparison, an HVX would certainly have a better documentary form factor. For run and gun type doc work like I normally do, the Andromeda mod sounds mostly untenable, too many things that could go wrong - many that have absolutely nothing to do with the mod itself, just the workflow and form factor.
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Duct Tape, as I said this debate can go on. If you think the Andromeda would be a hassle for you to run and gun shoot with, then don't shoot with it. Yes, this is mostly a studio mod for you camera where you are on location, but for some of us, that's what we need! I'll be doing A LOT of effects shots with this camera, mostly green screen stuff, so it's perfect for me.

Everyone will have a different preference for what they want with a camera and their shooting styles. Maybe this mod isn't for you, but it's for me!

Also Duct Tape, I noticed you are in Austin...we should try and get together some time man. I think there's some sort of DVXuser meeting that's going to happen soon. Just give me a shout out some time.

-Justin
 
But isn't that comparing apples to alligators, P2 cards versus hard drives?
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I think it is, but not because of P2 and Hard Drives, but because one system is recording highly-compressed 8-bit video, while the other is recording uncompressed full-bandwidth RGB at over 8-bit color precision. These are two completely different tools as far as the type of digital footage is concerned.

For example, somebody who wants to shoot run-and-gun, and is mostly concerned with 'getting the shot' will find a film-like workflow more clumsy than a DV/HDV/P2 workflow. This person is probably willing to take lower dynamic range and compression artifacts, if it means he/she will get some amazing content in difficult real-world locations.

On the other hand, somebody who is shooting movie sets, where literally the entire schedule revolves around getting it 'right', will most likely love the freedom that comes with wide dynamic range and uncompressed footage. This person probably wants to color-correct and mold the footage until it looks exactly like what he/she visualizes. In this kind of workflow, quality is a high priority.

These are only two extreme examples, but in the end, it's really up to the filmmaker. And in fact, that's the whole concept behind Andromeda. All it does is give the filmmaker the information that the camera -really- sees, not some decimated, compressed, pounded-on version of it.

Cheers,
Juan@reel-stream.com
 
pertierr said:
I think it is, but not because of P2 and Hard Drives, but because one system is recording highly-compressed 8-bit video, while the other is recording uncompressed full-bandwidth RGB at over 8-bit color precision. These are two completely different tools as far as the type of digital footage is concerned.

For example, somebody who wants to shoot run-and-gun, and is mostly concerned with 'getting the shot' will find a film-like workflow more clumsy than a DV/HDV/P2 workflow. This person is probably willing to take lower dynamic range and compression artifacts, if it means he/she will get some amazing content in difficult real-world locations.

On the other hand, somebody who is shooting movie sets, where literally the entire schedule revolves around getting it 'right', will most likely love the freedom that comes with wide dynamic range and uncompressed footage. This person probably wants to color-correct and mold the footage until it looks exactly like what he/she visualizes. In this kind of workflow, quality is a high priority.

These are only two extreme examples, but in the end, it's really up to the filmmaker. And in fact, that's the whole concept behind Andromeda. All it does is give the filmmaker the information that the camera -really- sees, not some decimated, compressed, pounded-on version of it.

Cheers,
Juan@reel-stream.com
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Exactly, this is a great tool for budget narrative filmmaking, and I'm glad you're emphasising that. It should most certainly give people confidence in your product, your willingness to say what the end user you had in mind during the design process was. In documentaries, yes, content is king. 4:4:4 color sampling means nothing to me if I miss the shot. And yes, over the years, I have often included footage that I would consider less than my ideal simply because the content outweighed my own pride. It's also half the thrill, in my opinion, getting only that one take. Best of luck to you, and your product. Sounds like you made a product/service that you yourself would want to use, not just something to sell. To be commended these days.

BTW - If you were to make something with a less cumbersome form factor, I may very well be the first in line. Have you thought about integrating a (removeable) hard drive right into the design, something that wouldn't need to go through a computer first? I'm guessing obviously you have, but I'm curious as why it's a problem right now. Is it a technical impossibility, or is the current design too software dependent for that kind of use? Any way to integrate the software user needs into the LCD screen of the camera itself? Eagerly waiting to hear about Andromeda 2.0....
 
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Justin_Kirch said:
Duct Tape, as I said this debate can go on. If you think the Andromeda would be a hassle for you to run and gun shoot with, then don't shoot with it. Yes, this is mostly a studio mod for you camera where you are on location, but for some of us, that's what we need! I'll be doing A LOT of effects shots with this camera, mostly green screen stuff, so it's perfect for me.

Everyone will have a different preference for what they want with a camera and their shooting styles. Maybe this mod isn't for you, but it's for me!

Also Duct Tape, I noticed you are in Austin...we should try and get together some time man. I think there's some sort of DVXuser meeting that's going to happen soon. Just give me a shout out some time.

-Justin
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I didn't say that this mod wouldn't be a great thing for the narrative filmmaker. In fact, if it weren't for the type of filmmaking I do, I would certainly consider this a viable option. As noted in the posts preceeding, you ARE the exact filmmaker this camera mod was designed for, if it fits your workflow demands & needs, go for it, I say.

In fact, I wasn't really dogging the camera mod at all, merely pointing out that comparing recording to hard drive to P2 cards isn't a fair comparison, as many HVX users aren't even going to be using P2 cards at all anymore in the near future, instead using things like the Firestore. Panasonic kind of misjudged it's potential audience with that data medium, IMHO.

I do live in this wonderful city called Austin. Over near the old airport, and Austin Studios. Wouldn't live anywhere else, except maybe somewhere else in Austin. (I've lived in 12 countries, and five states) We got to keep this town secret though. Seems like there are too many other people moving here, and they don't seem to drive very well.
 
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MiniMan said:
I don't think anyone has donated their HVX to them for testing out yet. :(

Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Hehehe,
yeah seems unlikely someone would offer his or her HVX for testing hardware modifications...
But maybe the HVX isn´t that interesting for modding because of the component out?
Maybe the mods quality wouldn´t be that much better...?
 
Hello,

We are already looking at the HVX for a next system. The component out is analog, it doesn't come close to uncompressed 4:4:4 at 10 or 12 bits, not to mention the possibility of added latitude.

However, even though the HVX doesn't have that many more pixels than the DVX, the fact that it can run at 60fps creates much more stringent bandwidth requirements as far as the recording media. That is, assuming we support full-bandwidth RGB(4:4:4) in 60P mode.

There are other issues as well, such as dynamic range. We expect the Andromeda DVX will still have the most dynamic range, sensitivity and lowest noise, because of the large surface area per sensor element, among other factors. The DVX has some very marked advantages, the HVX mostly brings the native 16:9 and added frame rates as unique advantages.

The one thing for sure is that any Andromeda-like system for the HVX will have a very different form factor than the curent system. We are also looking at other candidates such as the JVC HD100/200/250. The XL-H1 is not a good candidate since the sensors are interlaced.

Cheers,
Juan
 
pertierr said:
Hello,

We are already looking at the HVX for a next system. The component out is analog, it doesn't come close to uncompressed 4:4:4 at 10 or 12 bits, not to mention the possibility of added latitude.

However, even though the HVX doesn't have that many more pixels than the DVX, the fact that it can run at 60fps creates much more stringent bandwidth requirements as far as the recording media. That is, assuming we support full-bandwidth RGB(4:4:4) in 60P mode.

There are other issues as well, such as dynamic range. We expect the Andromeda DVX will still have the most dynamic range, sensitivity and lowest noise, because of the large surface area per sensor element, among other factors. The DVX has some very marked advantages, the HVX mostly brings the native 16:9 and added frame rates as unique advantages.

The one thing for sure is that any Andromeda-like system for the HVX will have a very different form factor than the curent system. We are also looking at other candidates such as the JVC HD100/200/250. The XL-H1 is not a good candidate since the sensors are interlaced.

Cheers,
Juan
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The JVC HD100/200/250 would be a cool one. For sure. uncompressed 4:4:4, 10 bits and greater latitude combined with interchangeable lenses and the form factor. that's something I could like real fast.
 
About the JVC, do note that it uses 1280x720 1/3" sensors. This means that the real-estate per pixel element is even less than the HVX, which in turn is less than the DVX. With decreasing pixel surface area, you get less dynamic range, and usually less sensitivity/more noise.

Also note that the JVC doesn't employ pixel shift at all, so Andromeda would generate up to a 1280x720 (720P) full RGB (4:4:4) image. The DVX Andromeda already generates 1.5k images at almost 10 stops. An HVX version would generate 1.9k(1080P) images, with less dynamic range than the DVX but more than the JVC.

The JVC does have the unique advantage of removable lenses.

Cheers,
Juan
 
Has anyone been able to find some REALLY good HD-100 footage? I've looked everywhere and haven't found anyone (sorry, this was kind of OT)
 
pertierr said:
The DVX Andromeda already generates 1.5k images at almost 10 stops. An HVX version would generate 1.9k(1080P) images, with less dynamic range than the DVX
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That statement is exciting. I'm starting to think that my DVX would look great with a little USB2 port. :)
 
pertierr said:
About the JVC, do note that it uses 1280x720 1/3" sensors. This means that the real-estate per pixel element is even less than the HVX, which in turn is less than the DVX. With decreasing pixel surface area, you get less dynamic range, and usually less sensitivity/more noise.

Also note that the JVC doesn't employ pixel shift at all, so Andromeda would generate up to a 1280x720 (720P) full RGB (4:4:4) image. The DVX Andromeda already generates 1.5k images at almost 10 stops. An HVX version would generate 1.9k(1080P) images, with less dynamic range than the DVX but more than the JVC.

The JVC does have the unique advantage of removable lenses.

Cheers,
Juan
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Thanks for the info! An andromedized JVC doesn't sound as cool now. other than the interchangeable lenses.

If I kick you guys a little extra, can you hook me up with an interchangeable lense mount when you install the Andromeda in my DVX :cheesy:
 
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Thanks for the info! An andromedized JVC doesn't sound as cool now. other than the interchangeable lenses.

If I kick you guys a little extra, can you hook me up with an interchangeable lense mount when you install the Andromeda in my DVX ;)
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That's a mod i'd be very interested in.
 
MojoTrancer said:
If I kick you guys a little extra, can you hook me up with an interchangeable lense mount when you install the Andromeda in my DVX :cheesy:
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LOL. It's actually something we have looked into, but the truth is we would have to sacrifice too much of the camera's original integrity to do it. I.e. it would be a very invasive mod, and our goal is to keep the camera as close as possible to its original operation. The current Andromeda system for example, doesn't change ANY camera functions at all, and the camera operates completely normal regardless what state the Andromeda system is in.

Personally, I'm a huge fan of Panasonic products. I think the best approach is to just add capabilities to an already fantastic camera, leaving the original design as untouched as possible. Depending on what camera we work on next, this may or may not be easy to do, but it's our goal nonetheless.

Please let me know if you have any other questions...

Cheers,
Juan@reel-stream.com
 
Darn it! Oh well.

But seriously, you guys have a great product here. I'm leaning more and more towards going the Andromeda route. I just have to get settled in Cali first, so it'll probably be about 8 weeks, then I'm gonna come callin' :)
 
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