randomname
Well-known member
So now that the red one has no advantage over the scarlet, how low are we going to see the prices to go on a used MX?
How low will the MX go?
- Thread starter randomname
- Start date
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
From what I've heard, that is not true. There are things you can do with the Red One you cannot do with the Scarlet-X. As you increase framerate, you seriously go down in windowed size of the sensor.
randomname
Well-known member
OK, fine, but that's a very small advantage. Assuming that the entire industry doesnt switch over to 48fps during the scarlet's lifetime (highly unlikely) there aren't very many situations where you'll need the increased framarates. Even if you exclusively did music videos and commercials, then you would use slow motion for what, one out of every one fifty days of shooting? A feature used so seldomly certainly won't protect the red ones from a huge market correction.
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
For you maybe, but we use it all the time in our productions because we do a lot of martial arts. We like to have the freedom in post to slow a shot down for dramatic effect in editing. We don't always use a lot of 60p, but that's not the point. It gives us the freedom to have it there if we need it.
Same with stunts. I filmed a car wreck stunt in slow-mo and I am glad at the time I was using the AF100. It looked great at 1080p.
People have different needs and the Red One still fills needs.
Scarlet is not a lot cheaper than Red 1 if you add the necessary modules for comparable features. Add $3750 for the Pro I/O module to the basic Scarlet shooting package and you are already at $18k. Red 1 used will hold its value pretty well I expect. Remains to be seen if there will be enough demand for new ones for production to continue though. I think Scarlet may EOL new R1's and I think Red anticipates that. Right now they have been on back order so the demand is definitely still there and it is a superb camera if you don't mind the bulk and weight. For crewed productions it should remain popular, for solo shooters Scarlet will be the obvious choice.
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
JJ had said he'd like people to hold onto their R1s. Maybe he will offer another sensor upgrade in the near future or some added features to make it worth their while.
Wait and see.
Wait and see.
randomname
Well-known member
But you're missing the point. While it may still be a very useful camera to you, you're a niche market.
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
I'm not the market at all actually, it's too heavy for me. That said, the weight of the Scarlet-X is pretty heavy as well. For people already invested in the Red One, I really don't see a reason to get away from it in situations where weight isn't an issue. I've even talked to people with a Red One that have said the same thing. I think most of them want to hold out for an Epic instead and have ALL the functionality when their financial situation allows it.
I don't see how 60p is a niche market. It's a very useful tool that I see lots of people talk about. Given that the absolute majority of modern cameras we talk about have some version of 60p, it seems to be a feature that people want. That said, all 60p implementations are NOT created equal, that is for sure
David W. Jones
Veteran
There is an MX package for sale for $15K, and one sold last week for $13.5
Ryan Patrick O'Hara
Veteran
The advantage right now is that there are over 8,000 RedOnes in the world... Sure, they will start selling for less but Red is giving some pretty sweet incentive if you turned your R1 in for an Epic... big discount... so if anything, selling your camera for 15k or 13k (as a member pointed out seeing) isn't really worth it for the owner. I'd say give it to Red and get a $17,000 discount off the purchase of an Epic.
I fail to see where you can go wrong.
The real question is how and why can red offer stage 3?
They are either:
a) taking a big loss
b) the cost of an Epic isn't more than 10k or close to, so they are just not making anything.
c) they are doing something with all the R1's that is making this incentive worth it for Red too... recycling? Reusing the sensors?
I just don't know.
Either way... if you own a Red1... it seems you'll get more if you continue to invest in Red Epic, versus simply selling it.
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I just got a Red One MX. Im also buying a scarlet pretty soon. If I have both those cameras I still spent less then the Epic. It's not like the Red One MX is obsolete. Its a 4.5k camera. It still does great, only real down size is the size. But I know already I can make my money back with the Red One. No one will rent the scarlet for 500 a day. If they do it will be with some nice primes. But people will still rent the Red One MX for 500-750 a day, easy.
Ryan Patrick O'Hara
Veteran
Why did you buy a R1? Why not two scarletts?
Do you really think people will rent R1's for 500-750.day? Out here in LA, that's a good indie rate as is now... not to mention when there are literally thousands and thousands of Epics and Scarletts floating around.
Just curious on your thoughts
Do you really think people will rent R1's for 500-750.day? Out here in LA, that's a good indie rate as is now... not to mention when there are literally thousands and thousands of Epics and Scarletts floating around.
Just curious on your thoughts
David W. Jones
Veteran
Looks like $10K is the new low point now.
And I sure would not want to be strictly in the camera rental business at the moment with the flood of super cheap indie Scarlet rentals soon to be undercutting everybody.
Hell, there are Epics renting for $400 a day right now! Oh well, the times they are a changing.
And I sure would not want to be strictly in the camera rental business at the moment with the flood of super cheap indie Scarlet rentals soon to be undercutting everybody.
Hell, there are Epics renting for $400 a day right now! Oh well, the times they are a changing.
Ryan Patrick O'Hara
Veteran
Might be a good time to be in the lens or accessories rental or sales business.
Nick Wernham
Member
I think that in the end the Scarlet-X (which was our choice for a new camera purchase) is marginally less expensive than the Red One once you kit both cameras out. With that said, you can definitely get a used Red One MX with a complete set of accessories for less than you can get a Scarlet-X with a similarly complete kit. With that said, each camera offers a unique set of advantages:
Red One MX
1) It can do 4.5k resolution. Scarlet-X cannot.
2) It cannot do slow motion at 4.5k or 4k, but it does offer some other niceties that the Scarlet doesn't in terms of slow motion: 60fps at 3k and 120fps at 2k. The Scarlet can only manage 48fps at 3k and 60fps at 2k. These are not small advantages in a raw sense (excuse the pun), but obviously how much of an advantage this is will depend greatly on your own artistic taste as well as the kind of work that you are doing.
3) It has all kinds of lovely professional inputs that we are still waiting to get as modules for the Epic and Scarlet. There are some nice third party alternatives that cover most things for the time being. This is a pretty big advantage for most people. You can also use all of the different inputs and outputs at the same time. On the Scarlet and Epic you can, for example, only use one of the HD-SDI or HDMI inputs at a time.
4) It has a long track record of being used on major productions. The firmware is well out of beta at this stage and the thing just works. For all of the horror stories you hear from people who bash Red the fact is that this thing is just about the most stable digital cinema camera going these days. It has a well-established workflow (several slightly different alternatives, in fact, depending on the media you are working with) and there are lots of long time users ready to provide you with assistance. The Scarlet (and to a lesser extent the Epic) is a new camera. It has had pretty rigorous testing in the real world now and is pretty damn solid too, but it doesn't have quite the pedigree and track record of the Red One yet. I wouldn't say it's a big enough difference to base your whole purchasing decision on, but if it's a close call when you take everything else into account then this is easily something that could tip the scales for you.
5) Because most people are getting Epics and Scarlets these days you should be able to find whatever accessories you want at a fairly reduced price on ebay or used through other avenues.
Scarlet-X
1) It can take 5k stills (stills at the same resolution with all of the same features as the Red Epic). The key difference is that the Epic obviously does motion at this resolution as well and slow motion to boot. The Scarlet does 5k stills, but does not do motion at this resolution. With that said, its 12fps burst mode is comparable to the fastest DSLRs going. We're talking about some serious stills shooting power here. You can pull stills from your Red One footage just as you can from either of the newer Red cameras, but it cannot do quite the resolution that the Scarlet or Epic can. This will be of tremendous use to some people and pretty marginal utility to others.
2) It has HDRx. You basically have to half the available frame rate at each resolution to get it (6fps at 5k, 12fps at 4k, 24fps at 3k, 30fps at 2k), but depending on your taste this might be a massive advantage or something that you really don't care much for at all. It's worth noting that Red is working on a way to get 4k HDRx available on the Scarlet. They do not anticipate that this will involve increasing the frame rate available at 4k, but rather utilizing a different method than simply taking two pictures at each resolution to achieve the HDRx effect. The folks at Red are pretty clever. I'm betting we have this available sooner than you think.
3) The small form factor. This has several advantages:
a. It's easier to do guerilla shooting with something the size of a Scarlet or an Epic than something the size of a Red One. Sure, once you build the Scarlet up with rods, a follow focus and a matte box it is right at home in a studio setting, but no more covert than a Red One, but you can just sneak some Canon glass on, throw on the side handle and outrigger handle (with some extra Red Volts and SSDs in your backback or a V-Mount battery on a backplate) and go out and shoot without attracting unwanted attention.
b. You can use smaller, lighter tripods with a stripped down package. You can also use lighter weight jibs and other tools. This can be tremendously useful for certain types of shooting.
c. It's easier to travel with. Not only is it smaller, but I think it's fair to say that your "bare bones" set of Scarlet accessories is going to be smaller than what you'd have when shooting with a Red One.
d. You can fit the camera into smaller places. Using a smaller camera can also simplify certain setups in enclosed spaces. This is handy at the very least and a liberating creative advantage in some cases.
4) It is new. It already boasts almost everything that the Red One MX does at this point and it is going to continue to grow and evolve. This camera is going to be supported by Red for at least several more years. I mentioned the plans to add HDRx at 4k already, but I'm sure we'll see some noticeable improvements going forward as well in the form of firmware updates.
5) This deserves a separate point: Dragon sensor upgrade. Apparently it is going to require a greater financial investment on the part of Red (and by extension the consumer) than upgrading an Epic from MX to Dragon, but having the option of making a noticeable hardware upgrade without buying an entirely new camera is great. All signs point to no Dragon sensor upgrade for the Red One.
6) At this stage most of the worthwhile accessories that you could get for the Red One MX are available for the Epic and Scarlet. We are still waiting on some useful modules to overcome some of the Scarlet/Epics disadvantages when it comes to various ports, but by and large most stuff is there. Furthermore, it's available in greater abundance and new stuff is being developed for the Scarlet/Epic than for the Red One. There will continue to be new accessories for the Red One, but not to the same degree. Furthermore, Red's own modules for the DSMC (Digital Stills and Motion Camera) system promise to offer a lot of wonderful enhancements to the Scarlet and Epic that may not ever be available to the Red One.
There are compelling reasons to choose either camera. Ultimately HDRx, the small form factor, getting a really awesome stills camera, upgradeability and being a part of a newer, evolving platform were worth more to us than some frame rate advantages, 4.5k motion (which may be eclipsed by the dragon sensor upgrade to Scarlet anyway), and some present day cost advantages. Obviously you may see things in a different light.
Red One MX
1) It can do 4.5k resolution. Scarlet-X cannot.
2) It cannot do slow motion at 4.5k or 4k, but it does offer some other niceties that the Scarlet doesn't in terms of slow motion: 60fps at 3k and 120fps at 2k. The Scarlet can only manage 48fps at 3k and 60fps at 2k. These are not small advantages in a raw sense (excuse the pun), but obviously how much of an advantage this is will depend greatly on your own artistic taste as well as the kind of work that you are doing.
3) It has all kinds of lovely professional inputs that we are still waiting to get as modules for the Epic and Scarlet. There are some nice third party alternatives that cover most things for the time being. This is a pretty big advantage for most people. You can also use all of the different inputs and outputs at the same time. On the Scarlet and Epic you can, for example, only use one of the HD-SDI or HDMI inputs at a time.
4) It has a long track record of being used on major productions. The firmware is well out of beta at this stage and the thing just works. For all of the horror stories you hear from people who bash Red the fact is that this thing is just about the most stable digital cinema camera going these days. It has a well-established workflow (several slightly different alternatives, in fact, depending on the media you are working with) and there are lots of long time users ready to provide you with assistance. The Scarlet (and to a lesser extent the Epic) is a new camera. It has had pretty rigorous testing in the real world now and is pretty damn solid too, but it doesn't have quite the pedigree and track record of the Red One yet. I wouldn't say it's a big enough difference to base your whole purchasing decision on, but if it's a close call when you take everything else into account then this is easily something that could tip the scales for you.
5) Because most people are getting Epics and Scarlets these days you should be able to find whatever accessories you want at a fairly reduced price on ebay or used through other avenues.
Scarlet-X
1) It can take 5k stills (stills at the same resolution with all of the same features as the Red Epic). The key difference is that the Epic obviously does motion at this resolution as well and slow motion to boot. The Scarlet does 5k stills, but does not do motion at this resolution. With that said, its 12fps burst mode is comparable to the fastest DSLRs going. We're talking about some serious stills shooting power here. You can pull stills from your Red One footage just as you can from either of the newer Red cameras, but it cannot do quite the resolution that the Scarlet or Epic can. This will be of tremendous use to some people and pretty marginal utility to others.
2) It has HDRx. You basically have to half the available frame rate at each resolution to get it (6fps at 5k, 12fps at 4k, 24fps at 3k, 30fps at 2k), but depending on your taste this might be a massive advantage or something that you really don't care much for at all. It's worth noting that Red is working on a way to get 4k HDRx available on the Scarlet. They do not anticipate that this will involve increasing the frame rate available at 4k, but rather utilizing a different method than simply taking two pictures at each resolution to achieve the HDRx effect. The folks at Red are pretty clever. I'm betting we have this available sooner than you think.
3) The small form factor. This has several advantages:
a. It's easier to do guerilla shooting with something the size of a Scarlet or an Epic than something the size of a Red One. Sure, once you build the Scarlet up with rods, a follow focus and a matte box it is right at home in a studio setting, but no more covert than a Red One, but you can just sneak some Canon glass on, throw on the side handle and outrigger handle (with some extra Red Volts and SSDs in your backback or a V-Mount battery on a backplate) and go out and shoot without attracting unwanted attention.
b. You can use smaller, lighter tripods with a stripped down package. You can also use lighter weight jibs and other tools. This can be tremendously useful for certain types of shooting.
c. It's easier to travel with. Not only is it smaller, but I think it's fair to say that your "bare bones" set of Scarlet accessories is going to be smaller than what you'd have when shooting with a Red One.
d. You can fit the camera into smaller places. Using a smaller camera can also simplify certain setups in enclosed spaces. This is handy at the very least and a liberating creative advantage in some cases.
4) It is new. It already boasts almost everything that the Red One MX does at this point and it is going to continue to grow and evolve. This camera is going to be supported by Red for at least several more years. I mentioned the plans to add HDRx at 4k already, but I'm sure we'll see some noticeable improvements going forward as well in the form of firmware updates.
5) This deserves a separate point: Dragon sensor upgrade. Apparently it is going to require a greater financial investment on the part of Red (and by extension the consumer) than upgrading an Epic from MX to Dragon, but having the option of making a noticeable hardware upgrade without buying an entirely new camera is great. All signs point to no Dragon sensor upgrade for the Red One.
6) At this stage most of the worthwhile accessories that you could get for the Red One MX are available for the Epic and Scarlet. We are still waiting on some useful modules to overcome some of the Scarlet/Epics disadvantages when it comes to various ports, but by and large most stuff is there. Furthermore, it's available in greater abundance and new stuff is being developed for the Scarlet/Epic than for the Red One. There will continue to be new accessories for the Red One, but not to the same degree. Furthermore, Red's own modules for the DSMC (Digital Stills and Motion Camera) system promise to offer a lot of wonderful enhancements to the Scarlet and Epic that may not ever be available to the Red One.
There are compelling reasons to choose either camera. Ultimately HDRx, the small form factor, getting a really awesome stills camera, upgradeability and being a part of a newer, evolving platform were worth more to us than some frame rate advantages, 4.5k motion (which may be eclipsed by the dragon sensor upgrade to Scarlet anyway), and some present day cost advantages. Obviously you may see things in a different light.
Jordan Scott Price
Veteran
Excellent post, Nick.
David W. Jones
Veteran
We sold our original Red One M some time ago when they were still getting a good price. But if the price on a Red One MX kit drops any lower I just might buy one. I have absolutely no interest in the Red Scarlet, which IMO is a crippled beta camera not ready for prime time. It will cost me about $24K to setup a Scarlet which is then still lacking some features which have not been activated yet. If I can get a fully kitted out Red MX for under $9K I might pop for one.
Tim Nitsch
Well-known member
Yeah probably because he doesn't want used R1 sales to rape Scarlet sales.
Personally I'd by a R1 over a Scarlet any day of the week. Other then smaller form factor, the Scarlet-X does absolutely nothing that I need that a R1 couldn't do for several thousand less.
Plus I feel the R1 is more reliable and has been a proven workhorse. Scarlet, Not so much.
Tim Nitsch
Well-known member
You nailed it David. +1
Barry_Green
Moderator
The Red One does that exactly the same. 120fps is only possible in 2k mode, which uses 1/4 the sensor. 60fps possible in 3k, which is windowed, etc. Same as Scarlet, although Scarlet has higher max frame rates.