How Important is Learning the Science of Light

[CharlesPapert]

yeah that looks terrific. I think you posted this shot once before and I had the same reaction. I can't actually tell that it was shot on a stage. I wouldn't want to be in her shoes, though. Or her sheet, rather. She looks like she's in deep sheet.

Ugh, I probably did and forgot it, the years go by, don't they? This was 2016 or so. A whole pandemic ago!

She was indeed in deep sheet...or rather, her partner was once he woke up.

Bedroom Scene CF

This is "Bedroom Scene CF" by Charles Papert on Vimeo, the home for high quality videos and the people who love them.

vimeo.com

 

[Run&Gun]

The thing I don't like about RGB lights is the color quality never seems to match bicolor fixtures. Like if you look at the Amaran 60x s or the Aputure Storm 1200x - they're got their SSI under manners. RGB lights are appreciably worse in that regard. So if I'm not planning on doing a saturated color thing, then I'm not starting out with an RGB light on the stand. And if it's not on the stand, I can't simply change my mind and switch it to a saturated color. I've got to change out the light. I've got an Amaran 150c that I rarely use. It also doesn't help that you lose so much output if you go to a deeply saturated color and really I'd like that unit to be 2 stops brighter at least. ...but it could be interesting to make the above backlight a deep blue instead if I put a 150c there instead of a 60x s...

I think Prolychts, Gemini's and the new 1200x(as you noted) are some of the best looking lights out there. I did a shoot a few years ago with some of my Prolychts as key and edge with my Amira and I thought it was one of the best looking interviews I've shot in years.

*edit*
Yes, Aputure designates the 1200x as a bi-color fixture, but it has a five color light engine and is actually capable of doing color(although they say colors are not as saturated as a "color" fixture).

 

[ahalpert]

Yes it was that submarine film.

I can take the jokes.no problem . but for 2024 'DOPs' some RGB thinking and discussion might be relevant. I like the backlit wedding woman

well, Mitch Gross claimed that non-RGB lights will someday soon seem as antiquated as tungsten fixtures. Not sure I buy it... Though I can see the appeal. Who wouldn't want to add functionality and options to their set-up.

And there are lots of color accents in the real world. Like a passing school bus reflecting bright yellow through the window. Green reflection off grass (which I don't think necessarily looks that good.) Stoplights at night. etc

But of course, when you use something like that in a shot then it becomes intentional and imbued with meaning. calls attention to itself.

One thing I'd like to see more of is variation in aesthetic within a movie. Consistency of style and lighting ratios, etc, is typically the goal. But that can get really boring

 

[ahalpert]

I think Prolychts, Gemini's and the new 1200x(as you noted) are some of the best looking lights out there. I did a shoot a few years ago with some of my Prolychts as key and edge with my Amira and I thought it was one of the best looking interviews I've shot in years.

*edit*
Yes, Aputure designates the 1200x as a bi-color fixture, but it has a five color light engine and is actually capable of doing color(although they say colors are not as saturated as a "color" fixture).

Using the prolycht at 3200k or 5600k?

"The Prolycht Orion 675 FS LED has an SSI rating of 84 at 3200K and 74 at 5600K"

74 is weak sauce

 

[Run&Gun]

Using the prolycht at 3200k or 5600k?

"The Prolycht Orion 675 FS LED has an SSI rating of 84 at 3200K and 74 at 5600K"

74 is weak sauce

Unless I'm having to match ambient, I almost 100% shoot 3200K when I control the environment. But I also regularly use my 675's between mid/high 4's and low 5's in sports arenas, when I need to match with the ambient light and they look great.

Side Note: The specific interview I mentioned, I shot with 300FS's. It was before I had received my first 675. But as far as I know, they are the same light engine. The 675 is just more powerful.

Side Side Note: I hate shooting 5600K, unless I'm outside or matching ambient. I just hate the "feeling" it gives me shooting it inside and it's the only light source. I've done tons of shoots where it honestly didn't matter if I shot 3200K, 5600K or whatever, because I controlled the environment and could balance the camera to look like it was supposed to, but I always chose(and do choose) 3200K, because it feels and looks better to my naked eye. But I see a lot of people, in the same situations, and they choose to shoot 5600K. A couple of years ago, I was shooting some 'infinite white' background vignettes for a client and a friend was in the room next door shooting 'infinite white' background interviews. I lit and shot 3200K and he lit and shot 5600K. Looking at the monitors, everything looked fine/neutral, as it should since the cameras were set to match the light sources, but his room just "felt" so cold and dark and depressing and my room felt warm and bright and inviting. I would have hated to work in his room all day long. And may have played into why they didn't seem to stay in their room when they didn't have interviews going on, whereas we didn't mind hanging out in ours, even when we weren't shooting.

 

[CharlesPapert]

Possibly the inspiration to shoot 5600K came from the early RED days, when those sensors performed much better at that color temp vs 3200? I assume that has been rectified in the intervening years?

 

[morgan_moore]

5600 was great as you could/can include window light - not just shoot in black boxes or yellow all your windows.

But look st any led graph and u see very weak dark reds. Not suprising they feel cold

(Graph- more science!)

 

[ahalpert]

Possibly the inspiration to shoot 5600K came from the early RED days, when those sensors performed much better at that color temp vs 3200? I assume that has been rectified in the intervening years?

I feel like fluorescent fixtures typically put out better daylight than tungsten? Like Kinos? Maybe people developed a preference from that experience?

 

[ahalpert]

Unless I'm having to match ambient, I almost 100% shoot 3200K when I control the environment. But I also regularly use my 675's between mid/high 4's and low 5's in sports arenas, when I need to match with the ambient light and they look great.

Side Note: The specific interview I mentioned, I shot with 300FS's. It was before I had received my first 675. But as far as I know, they are the same light engine. The 675 is just more powerful.

Side Side Note: I hate shooting 5600K, unless I'm outside or matching ambient. I just hate the "feeling" it gives me shooting it inside and it's the only light source. I've done tons of shoots where it honestly didn't matter if I shot 3200K, 5600K or whatever, because I controlled the environment and could balance the camera to look like it was supposed to, but I always chose(and do choose) 3200K, because it feels and looks better to my naked eye. But I see a lot of people, in the same situations, and they choose to shoot 5600K. A couple of years ago, I was shooting some 'infinite white' background vignettes for a client and a friend was in the room next door shooting 'infinite white' background interviews. I lit and shot 3200K and he lit and shot 5600K. Looking at the monitors, everything looked fine/neutral, as it should since the cameras were set to match the light sources, but his room just "felt" so cold and dark and depressing and my room felt warm and bright and inviting. I would have hated to work in his room all day long. And may have played into why they didn't seem to stay in their room when they didn't have interviews going on, whereas we didn't mind hanging out in ours, even when we weren't shooting.

Well, I can't argue with your personal experience of the lights looking good despite the SSI score. Maybe in that case it's about the skin tone rendering specifically.

What's interesting is that actually daylight feels very warm and inviting. Maybe just because of the heat? But I don't think so. The kids and I love lounging in the backyard on a sunny day. It's only in the dead of winter that I associate the light coming through the windows as having a sickly hue.

 

[CharlesPapert]

I feel like fluorescent fixtures typically put out better daylight than tungsten? Like Kinos? Maybe people developed a preference from that experience?

Not sure what you mean--the only way tungsten "puts out" daylight is if gelled to do so, with full CTB. Classic Kino tubes were tuned to specifically color temperature, either tungsten 3200 or daylight 5500.

What's interesting is that actually daylight feels very warm and inviting. Maybe just because of the heat? But I don't think so. The kids and I love lounging in the backyard on a sunny day. It's only in the dead of winter that I associate the light coming through the windows as having a sickly hue.

Our brains don't tend to notice the difference in color temp unless we pay attention to it--generally speaking, people who aren't photographers or cinematographers wouldn't think of the mid-day sun coming in in the afternoon as being colder in color than the lamp in the living room, but of course it is. I often struggled with how to present that in a studio setting. If I let the light from an incandescent bulb play at 2900k and the camera is at 3200K, what color should sunlight be? 5600 is "correct" (depends on time of day and atmospheric conditions--a setting sun can be very warm), but that will read blue on camera. That dead of winter light is usually very cold, as much as 10,000K, and lower output, so the blue color tends to be more noticeable when you see it peek through the windows.

 

[ahalpert]

Not sure what you mean--the only way tungsten "puts out" daylight is if gelled to do so, with full CTB. Classic Kino tubes were tuned to specifically color temperature, either tungsten 3200 or daylight 5500.


Our brains don't tend to notice the difference in color temp unless we pay attention to it--generally speaking, people who aren't photographers or cinematographers wouldn't think of the mid-day sun coming in in the afternoon as being colder in color than the lamp in the living room, but of course it is. I often struggled with how to present that in a studio setting. If I let the light from an incandescent bulb play at 2900k and the camera is at 3200K, what color should sunlight be? 5600 is "correct" (depends on time of day and atmospheric conditions--a setting sun can be very warm), but that will read blue on camera. That dead of winter light is usually very cold, as much as 10,000K, and lower output, so the blue color tends to be more noticeable when you see it peek through the windows.

That makes sense regarding winter light.

Forgive my bad use of grammar/punctuation - I meant to say that daylight kinos had higher CRI and better color rendering than tungsten kinos. Or so I thought (and I think is true of flos generally.) And so I thought that maybe people gravitated towards using daylight kinos when offered the choice. Or am I wrong?

 

[Movies by Matt]

Regarding color temperature setting in the camera, I’m curious about opinions on best practices for the following scenario:

Live indoor event with uncontrolled lighting. Event starts an hour before sundown. So when it starts there’s daylight streaming through windows. Usually practical lights are turned on too. By the time the event ends the only available light is the practicals.

What color temperature would you choose and why?

 

[Doug Jensen]

Option 1: Set the practicals for daylight. Set the camera to 5600K preset. Shoot.

Option 2: Pull out a white card and set a custom white balance at the beginning of the event. When the sun goes down, pull out the white card again and set a new white balance.

 

[ahalpert]

Regarding color temperature setting in the camera, I’m curious about opinions on best practices for the following scenario:

Live indoor event with uncontrolled lighting. Event starts an hour before sundown. So when it starts there’s daylight streaming through windows. Usually practical lights are turned on too. By the time the event ends the only available light is the practicals.

What color temperature would you choose and why?

I've shot in this exact scenario numerous times at wedding receptions.

One question you have to answer is if you want to color the scene the way it looks to the eye or if you want to neutralize the color cast.

Late-day sunlight has a lower color temperature. For the wedding studios I shoot, they always want to neutralize the color of every scene, even if in real life the room looks bathed in warm candlelight.

So, if there is direct sunlight coming in the windows, I typically lower my color temperature gradually over the hour before sunset. I go from 5600k to something like 4400k (can't remember) to neutralize the sun. Then the sun disappears and I'm balancing for a mix of practicals and remaining skylight. So you jump down to 3800k or something depending on the strength of the practicals. And as it gets totally dark outside you settle down to the practicals color temp.

I rely on a color-accurate monitor (my mirrorless EVF) and just adjust by eye.

But there are so many other variables, aren't there. Like if you're shooting something on a table right by a practical then the practical may dominate the color mix even before sunset. And if you're not getting direct sunlight, then the window lights are probably very high color temperature.

 

[Doug Jensen]

. For the wedding studios I shoot, they always want to neutralize the color of every scene, even if in real life the room looks bathed in warm candlelight.

Ya gotta do what the client wants, but do you agree with that requirement?
If it was me I'd push back real hard. I like motivated color casts. If the couple are on the beach at sunset, would they want it to look gray? If there are candles in the room, I want them to look warm.

 

[ahalpert]

Ya gotta do what the client wants, but do you agree with that requirement?
If it was me I'd push back real hard. I like motivated color casts. If the couple are on the beach at sunset, would they want it to look gray? If there are candles in the room, I want them to look warm.

No, I completely disagree with that decision.

I will say that the possible motivation behind it is that the various scenes get mixed together back and forth in the music video edit and maybe the studios think that they blend together better if nothing has a noticeable color cast.

But my general feeling is that if the scene looks colored to the eye then you should keep it that way in the footage. I mean, that was the whole point of using warm lighting. My camera usually meters a wedding reception at "<2500k," either because it's lit by candles or very warm tungsten or LEDs masquerading as such.

The lighting designer of the event is clearly aware that the eye will not fully neutralize the color cast.

But in my footage it comes out looking plain white and it hurts me every time. I've made the case to the clients and been overruled.

 

[Run&Gun]

Possibly the inspiration to shoot 5600K came from the early RED days, when those sensors performed much better at that color temp vs 3200? I assume that has been rectified in the intervening years?

I remember reading that in the early days of CMOS sensors, they are "native 5600K". And CCD's are "native 3200K". Even though they are both technically B&W sensors with color filters over them.

When I had the choice(complete control of the environment) I shot my C300, F55 and Amira at 3200K. Some of the prettiest images I saw come out of my F55 was shooing in an old studio with true tungsten in the grid. It's almost like a cheat code. And I've said it before, it's funny that we spend thousands of dollars for what are essentially light producing computer boxes that try to replicate dirt cheap 100+ year old technology. Pick up a used Lowel or Arri tungsten fixture on eBay for $100 and put a ~$10-$20 tungsten lamp in and it will look better than even the most expensive modern LED fixture.

 

[Doug Jensen]

Yes. if you want the very best looking human skin tones, use tungsten. I make that clear in all my interview lighting workshops. But if you're willing to give up just a little bit of image quality, you get a ton of advantages from using high-quality dimmable, battery-operated, daylight-balanced LED lights. The trade off is well worth it to me.

 

[ahalpert]

Some people say the best light source for skin tones is other human beings. You just have to bundle a lot of them together and white balance for infrared

 

[Run&Gun]

Yes. if you want the very best looking human skin tones, use tungsten. I make that clear in all my interview lighting workshops. But if you're willing to give up just a little bit of image quality, you get a ton of advantages from using high-quality dimmable, battery-operated, daylight-balanced LED lights. The trade off is well worth it to me.

Yep. Everything is a balancing act/trade off. Absolute image quality: Tungsten wins. But as you noted, there are lots of advantages that we get with modern LED fixtures. And couple those with the increasing image/light quality that many can produce today and yes, the trade off is worth it for 99.9% of what most of us do on a daily basis.

Because of the college football package that I have this season, my most used lights have become Aputure 600d Pro’s and 300x’s. And I have two 1200x’s that have been on order with B&H since September. I actually can’t wait to get my hands on them and implement them into our outdoor stage set. But B&H has changed the expected ship date a couple of times and I haven’t heard of anyone taking delivery yet, except for some of the gaffers and shooters with YouTube channels and websites, that got early access a month or two ago.