How did old Hollywood record sound?

[Allan Black]

My 2 cents and a bit O/T. Leaving school in 1956 I worked for Qantas, wanted to be a pilot but eventually they said I was too tall and bundled me off I answered an adv (which I've still got somewhere) "Young man wanted to learn sound recording" 2 weeks later I understudied a studio fx guy for radio dramas and a week later he went on holidays and muggins got in there.

The first major sync live effect I ever did was the knockout punch when 'Larry Kent Private Detective' got his man. Standing in the pit you punch your closed fist into your open palm into an STC 8 ball mic. I practised it in the coffee booth till my hand went red but on the night I managed it.

All the actors over at the main mic (RCA 44BX) knew I was a virgin and after the red light went out, slooowlly they turned ... and I got a round of applause. Very impressive for a 17yr old, never forget it.

But I digress. In those days the analogue signal path was very basic. Later I panelled and produced the breakfast show at 2UE and every weekday morning at 4.45am I used to clean the air consoles huge rotary faders with a bottle brush and metho. It was just a big jam tin with some faders on it, hardly any wiring at all. But it worked and we consistently topped the ratings. I ran 6 turntables and 2 tape players.

So circuits were simple back then, no post production as we know it, no digital screwing around, things were live, adrenalin was pumping. What you hear as good early film sound is mostly the performance.
Cheers.

 

[Chamber005]

As a recorder, absolutely. I have an H4, and with a line-level feed from my mixer I get really pristine recordings. That bypasses the pre-amps, however, which are trash in the H4. The H4N is supposed to have improved pre-amps, but they eliminated the option of taking -10dB line level via the 1/4" connections (very handy in the H4). You can still minimize the play of the pre-amps in the H4N, but you'll end up having to pad the line-level mixer out way down to get a signal into the H4N.



I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you have two major sources of hiss:

1) The audio circuits in the DSR-200 aren't going to be the best.

2) You're using a Behringer mixer, which is simply rubbish.

Now, not seeing (hearing) how you set up your audio from day to day, I can't say for sure that your gain staging isn't making the above challenges worse.



Hiss can be solved both with better gear and with proper gain staging. It's not always going to be there if you have the right stuff and use it correctly. If you have a clean mixer, like the SD302, and feed it's line-level out to a digital recorder, you'll have clean audio. That is, of course, assuming that you aren't using cheap cables (especially over longer runs) with cheap, poorly-soldered connectors.

Hmm... Well the gain staging shouldn't be an issue seeing as how I keep the DSR200 at a 2 and the Xenyx 1202 also at a 1-2. High/Low/Mid EQs typically are kept flat.

I'm a little bummed to hear about the Xenyx preamp. What makes one mixer/preamp "rubbish" and another one good? I have the 502 and the 1202 because that was the best brand they said they had for recording dialog at Guitar Center. I told them I needed phantom power for my XLR mics and what exactly I was going to be doing and they suggested the Xenyx line.

I've gathered a pretty good understanding of mics, but I'm apparently still completely without a clue when it comes to preamps/mixers.

 

[Alex H.]

Hmm... Well the gain staging shouldn't be an issue seeing as how I keep the DSR200 at a 2 and the Xenyx 1202 also at a 1-2. High/Low/Mid EQs typically are kept flat.

Those numbers mean nothing. Gain staging means calibrating each point in the signal chain for best s/n ratio. But with cheap pre-amps, there's not much that can be done to eliminate noise.

I'm a little bummed to hear about the Xenyx preamp. What makes one mixer/preamp "rubbish" and another one good? I have the 502 and the 1202 because that was the best brand they said they had for recording dialog at Guitar Center. I told them I needed phantom power for my XLR mics and what exactly I was going to be doing and they suggested the Xenyx line.

I've gathered a pretty good understanding of mics, but I'm apparently still completely without a clue when it comes to preamps/mixers.

Hate to say it, but trusting Guitar Center to tell you what you need for, well, anything isn't reliable. I really have not had many good experiences with them, and only go in there if I know exactly what I need and can go in, pay for the item, and leave quickly. And they're geared towards bar-gigging musicians and club DJs... I tried once to talk to some one at our local GC about production and post for film/TV and he knew absolutely nothing. It's a different world, and they don't live in it.

Behringer mixers have about the same reputation as Azden wireless. What makes one pre-amp good and another one trash? Quality of components used in construction, circuit design, factory calibration... things that, if done right, tend to add a little to the cost.

 

[Cranky]

My 2 cents and a bit O/T. ...

Whenever I come across a post written by an Aussie, it is always a great read. Thanks a lot!

 

[Allan Black]

Thanks Cranky, happy Xmas. Cheers.

 

[Chamber005]

Seeing as how the recommended mixer listed here is around 1300 bucks, I'm wondering if something like this would suffice (which my camera rental place rents for about $50 per day)

http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-DJM-7...8&s=musical-instruments&qid=1259727543&sr=8-2

or

http://www.amazon.com/Soundcraft-Gi...sical-instruments&qid=1259727714&sr=8-1-spell

The problem is there just aren't many really good rental places around here. Zacuto is usually expensive, but their audio stuff is pretty inexpensive. The only mixer they have is:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/118708-REG/Shure_FP33_FP_33_Portable_Mixer.html

Would the Shure be the best one?

Thanks!

 

[Alex H.]

Seeing as how the recommended mixer listed here is around 1300 bucks, I'm wondering if something like this would suffice (which my camera rental place rents for about $50 per day)

http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-DJM-7...8&s=musical-instruments&qid=1259727543&sr=8-2

or

http://www.amazon.com/Soundcraft-Gi...sical-instruments&qid=1259727714&sr=8-1-spell

The Pioneer is a DJ mixer... that's going to be just as effective, if not less, than your Behringer. The Gigrac is an amplified mixer (PA system in a box) and is not going to give you what you need at all.

The problem is there just aren't many really good rental places around here. Zacuto is usually expensive, but their audio stuff is pretty inexpensive. The only mixer they have is:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/118708-REG/Shure_FP33_FP_33_Portable_Mixer.html

Would the Shure be the best one?

The Shure FP33 was the film/TV bag mixer standard before Sound Devices came along. Even still, there are plenty of FP33 mixers cranking away out there.

You can also rent from Trew Audio in Nashville... they ship rentals anywhere.

 

[Chamber005]

The Pioneer is a DJ mixer... that's going to be just as effective, if not less, than your Behringer. The Gigrac is an amplified mixer (PA system in a box) and is not going to give you what you need at all.



The Shure FP33 was the film/TV bag mixer standard before Sound Devices came along. Even still, there are plenty of FP33 mixers cranking away out there.

You can also rent from Trew Audio in Nashville... they ship rentals anywhere.

Yeah, other people have mentioned having rental equipment shipped, but doesn't that hurt the pricing quite a bit?

I'll check them out. The worst thing about Zacuto is the price of their cameras. The audio and "extras" are priced fine, but some of the prosumer stuff being 300-400 bucks per day JUST for the camera (no extras whatsoever) seems a little silly to me when you consider you can actually own most of the old prosumer ones they rent for around 1500 bucks.

But you're saying the Shure combined with an H4N and good mics will probably eliminate the hiss, right?

It seems like there are a few DAT recorders out there for the same price as the H4N. The Sony TCD-D10 Pro and the Tascam DA30 are both the same price as the H4N.

And, obviously, since I'm going to be renting a mixer, I could also rent Sound Devices 722.

The only problem with renting a recorder is that I wouldn't have a lot of time to play around with it, you know? Might be nicer to own one.

 

[Alex H.]

Shipping the rentals isn't going to hurt too much, if at all. Call Trew... ask them what their rates are. Or check the website.

A good mixer, feeding a good recorder, with good mics, will certainly increase your audio dramatically.

As for DAT recorders, it's hard to find one new these days (though the ones that cost the same as a new H4N are obviously used), and you have to order blanks as not many folks carry them anymore. The Sony TCD-D10 is a fine, portable unit that is comparable to the Tascam DA-P1. I had a DA-P1 for along time and it served me well, and we had a TCD-D10 as a backup in the studio control room where I used to work (used mostly for recording ISDN VO sessions). You can find either one used on ebay right now... I'd go for the DA-P1.

The Tascam DA-30 is probably not your best bet. It's a great machine (I have a DA-30 MKII in my ProTools suite), but is a studio unit and isn't practical in the field.

If you were already working with DAT, I'd say that it might not be a bad choice. But it's not something you want to start investing in now if you aren't already set up to work with it. You'd need an interface for your computer that can take coaxial S/PDIF input in order to transfer the audio without taking an analog generation.

There are so many handheld, solid-state recorders out there now that, for taking a mixer feed, can be incredibly useful on low/no-budget indie projects. And for units like the H4 that have built-in stereo mic configurations, you can get double duty out of them as you'll be able to grab ambience in a pinch.

 

[Noiz2]

DAT is dead. Tapes are getting hard to find and nobody repairs them anymore, I would be a bit surprised if you could find any new. Also these are rack mounted AC boxes. You should probably be looking at something portable. If your ALWAYS going to have AC power around you could go for cheaper non portable mixers. Mackie 1202 should be pretty cheap, I would sell you my old one for not much. If your always two channels or less then the MixPre is an option. If your going with a 722 and your two mic's or less then you can use the onboard preamps and skip the mixer.

 

[Brad S.]

Back to the OP, a guy from Dolby once told me a theory about why production sound in old films were so much better. He argued that the sound equipment was much heavier back then. Lugging around all this heavy equipment and holding a heavy mic on the end of a boom all day would require pretty big and strong boom ops. When the lighting crew would tell the boom op to move, this big burly guy with a long heavy weapon would simply say "no" and everyone else would have to move for sound. I doubt this was actually the case, especially considering that the lighting equipment would have been heavier too, but it is funny to imagine it.

I think another aspect to consider, at least with exterior shots, is that we live in a noisier world. There are more cars and more freeways now than there were in the 30s and 40s, so there is much more background noise pollution that can invade the tracks.

 

[Chamber005]

Shipping the rentals isn't going to hurt too much, if at all. Call Trew... ask them what their rates are. Or check the website.

A good mixer, feeding a good recorder, with good mics, will certainly increase your audio dramatically.

As for DAT recorders, it's hard to find one new these days (though the ones that cost the same as a new H4N are obviously used), and you have to order blanks as not many folks carry them anymore. The Sony TCD-D10 is a fine, portable unit that is comparable to the Tascam DA-P1. I had a DA-P1 for along time and it served me well, and we had a TCD-D10 as a backup in the studio control room where I used to work (used mostly for recording ISDN VO sessions). You can find either one used on ebay right now... I'd go for the DA-P1.

The Tascam DA-30 is probably not your best bet. It's a great machine (I have a DA-30 MKII in my ProTools suite), but is a studio unit and isn't practical in the field.

If you were already working with DAT, I'd say that it might not be a bad choice. But it's not something you want to start investing in now if you aren't already set up to work with it. You'd need an interface for your computer that can take coaxial S/PDIF input in order to transfer the audio without taking an analog generation.

There are so many handheld, solid-state recorders out there now that, for taking a mixer feed, can be incredibly useful on low/no-budget indie projects. And for units like the H4 that have built-in stereo mic configurations, you can get double duty out of them as you'll be able to grab ambience in a pinch.

Hm. Okay. So basically I'm better off buying an H4N rather than renting the 722?

And does the H4N need an additional mixer or is it an all-in-one kind of deal?

 

[unclebob6958]

The mic pres in the H4n are noisy. Use a good mixer.

 

[Steve House]

Hm. Okay. So basically I'm better off buying an H4N rather than renting the 722?

And does the H4N need an additional mixer or is it an all-in-one kind of deal?

Haven't used an H4n but I just can't believe you'd be better off using one in preference to a SD 722.

 

[Alex H.]

Haven't used an H4n but I just can't believe you'd be better off using one in preference to a SD 722.

If it's a difference between renting and owning on a budget, a handheld recorder can be very useful for a tight budget... if taking line-level feed from a mixer. Those pre-amps aren't going to get you far, so bypassing them is the best option.

The 722 is miles above the H4N in quality and functionality.

 

[Chamber005]

If it's a difference between renting and owning on a budget, a handheld recorder can be very useful for a tight budget... if taking line-level feed from a mixer. Those pre-amps aren't going to get you far, so bypassing them is the best option.

The 722 is miles above the H4N in quality and functionality.

So basically even if I purchase the H4N I'm still stuck renting a mixer, right?

Are there any MIXERS in the same price range as the H4N, or are all the good mixers like 1,000+

 

[Alex H.]

So basically even if I purchase the H4N I'm still stuck renting a mixer, right?

Are there any MIXERS in the same price range as the H4N, or are all the good mixers like 1,000+

Yes, you will need a mixer to make most of the H4N*. The least expensive I'd go would be the Sound Devices MixPre. It's only two channels in and out, but is a great start and will hold its value over time. Other than that, it's the SD302 or the Shure FP33.

There are some "ENG" mixers that are in the H4N price range, but I wouldn't put my money in any of them.

But weigh your purchase vs. rental options. If there's a chance that you can save up for something better by renting now, do it. You've heard it before, but cheaping out on audio is actually more expensive in the long run.



*The H4N has pre-amps slightly improved (though still not great) over the original H4, but they dropped the true lin-level in support on the 1/4" connections. Don't know why, but I find it was a poor decision on the designer's part. You will have to pad line-level out of a mixer just a bit to get a manageable signal in. If you want to go the handheld rout, you may try to find some on who still has the original H4 in stock. Pre-amps are awful, but the 1/4" (-10dB) line in is perfectly clean, and are great for taking the 1/8" stereo tape out from mixers like the SD MixPre or 302.

 

[timbook2]

So I guess what I'm really wondering is what did Roger Corman, Woody Allen and Martin Scorcese use to record their early audio stuff on? And would that 60s and 70s equipment be affordable for indie filmmakers today? And if so, why aren't they using it?

They recorded on tape with and without sprocket holes. They used class A mic pres. Equipment was HEAVY! There were REAL transformers in the audio path and theses things weigh. Today it would have to be digitalized.....Tape has tape hiss and is prone to ageing problems when not stored correctly, it peels off the magnetic substance if stored improperly ( I still have a tape baking oven).

Last but not least: to syncronize film and sound you need to involve expensive syncronizing machinery.

With the invention of DAT recorders we had almost perfect free sync over the first 3 minutes ( and who shot longer takes?)

In the end its the quality of the signal path, the microphone and the technique.

I wouldnt want to go back to the old times, its just the people who dont know how to use the excellent stuff we have available today, properly.

 

[timbook2]

So circuits were simple back then, no post production as we know it, no digital screwing around, things were live, adrenalin was pumping. What you hear as good early film sound is mostly the performance.
Cheers.

Nice ! One thing that comes to mind: a lot of the recordings were done "live" in 1 take with lots of people around, the atmosphere ....its on tape! ten-fifty people being silent while the actors do their thing but the atmosphere....its recorded!!

And call me what you want, I feel that atmo sometimes!!!

 

[Chadfish]

Ya know, I wish I could find some info on the audio techniques/gear they used on "Creature From the Black Lagoon" films. Not only do those films sound awesome, I found out that my grandfather did location sound for at least one of the productions. I had no idea my grandfather was an audio guy or a musician (in a traveling mandolin orchestra), but not long before my father's death 5 years ago he mentioned this info about my grandfather. I have not been able to find any crew data on "Return (or REVENGE) of the Creature of the Black Lagoon" which I am positive he was the main sound guy on.

I find it interesting because without being influenced directly by him (he died a decade before I was born) I ended up being a touring musician, and eventually an audio engineer doing location audio (amongst other things) for film(video). I think it must run in the genes and we just gravitate to our calling. It's just a bummer that I can't find any info. He was supposedly a "go-to" guy for audio in Florida (Where they filmed Creature) in the 40s & 50s.

Richard Henry Johnson was his name.