How can I make "flat" sounding audio sound more "3d/full"?

J

Jackson Miller

Well-known member
So I am working on editing a short and I feel like the biggest weakness is the audio/sound design. The entire film used the blueline akg hypercardiod mic and was filmed in a VERY small basement/cellar. I kept the mic close so the audio is relatively clean, it just doesn't sound very "full." I laid a ambience track under the whole thing that is from the actual room. I don't know what filters I can use and what other ambience I can add to make it sound better. I am new to sound design (I actually know nothing about it other than the very basics), so I am having trouble describing what I mean, but what would you do next and what can I do to make it sound better?

Thanks so much.
 
First things first. The short answer is to hire a sound designer that actually knows what they are doing. You aren't going to get much help because it's hard to tell you what to do when you won't understand the terms, plug-ins, and DAW's that are out there.

The question I have is this:
Do you want to be a sound designer? If so, then you need to either go to school, or intern at a place (preferably both). This isn't something you can just "do". It takes years to get good at.

If you don't want to be a sound designer, and this just kinda fell into your lap, then you need to make due with what you have and hope for the best. If you don't have a good DAW, plug-ins, and a really comprehensive sound FX library, and most importantly...the know how, you aren't going to be able to get the end result you are looking for.
 
I'm going to go a bit contrary.

Dave is a bit new to the list so I'm going to assume you are the filmmaker and your trying to do your own sound post.

(His advice would be more for someone who wanted to sound primarily and that isn't the majority of posters on this site.)

First thing you can do is read the stickies on post. There is a treasure trove of info there.

Second while I generally agree with Dave the hard reality is that if you are not in the right place interning is not an option and there are very few schools worth attending for sound. If you really want to do sound for a living find somewhere you can be an assistant. That means probably a few years of phone calls and shmoosing etc till you get a call.

But I think your the director/DP/ everyman/ sound post guy.

So if you can find someone local that would like to work on your film that is the best. Otherwise read the stickies and then ask what your confused about.

It sounds like your looking for a Hollywoodesque sound and that mostly comes down to time and layers. And then a mix.
 
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Jackson Miller said:
So I am working on editing a short and I feel like the biggest weakness is the audio/sound design. The entire film used the blueline akg hypercardiod mic and was filmed in a VERY small basement/cellar. I kept the mic close so the audio is relatively clean, it just doesn't sound very "full." I laid a ambience track under the whole thing that is from the actual room. I don't know what filters I can use and what other ambience I can add to make it sound better. I am new to sound design (I actually know nothing about it other than the very basics), so I am having trouble describing what I mean, but what would you do next and what can I do to make it sound better?

Thanks so much.
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From my non-pro POV, it sounds like the lack you 'hear' may be due to a couple of things, one of with is 'room reverberation'. When someone speaks, the 'area' forms an echoplex that give cues as to size and 'where'. A bedroom has a different characteristic than even the livingroom of the same house, being outdoors is different than indoors. Being in a big room different than a small.

While it is the rule to avoid capturing reverberation on the set, adding it in after the fact, may enhance the perception of 'where' that the sound cues to the listener.

I've not looked at the stickies in a while, but I recall seeing references to filters based on the 'impulse response" of different room types/sizes/shapes in some of the threads. "impulse response" is a fancy way of describing the room's response to a sharp sound, and is used to 'simulate' sounds from such a room, by using signal processing to combine the 'clean sound' with the 'room response".

This is different from 'room tone', which is recording of all the 'sounds' in a room or area that exist when dialog or other film production activities are not being done.
 
Basically you have to deliver an experience.

The experience is not as simple as ambiance and dialogue.

You should read the stickies, good stuff in there.

Its all about buildings layers of sound. Have fun and experiment.
 
Jackson Miller said:
So I am working on editing a short and I feel like the biggest weakness is the audio/sound design. The entire film used the blueline akg hypercardiod mic and was filmed in a VERY small basement/cellar. I kept the mic close so the audio is relatively clean, it just doesn't sound very "full." I laid a ambience track under the whole thing that is from the actual room. I don't know what filters I can use and what other ambience I can add to make it sound better. I am new to sound design (I actually know nothing about it other than the very basics), so I am having trouble describing what I mean, but what would you do next and what can I do to make it sound better?

Thanks so much.
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Sounds like you are asking for tips on how to sweeten your mix. Might be the Rose book on post production will point you in the right direction(s). You might want to couple that book with Rose's book on producing sound. IDK. I found it helpful, but that doesn't mean you will -- we all learn differently.
 
Noiz2 said:
Second while I generally agree with Dave the hard reality is that if you are not in the right place interning is not an option and there are very few schools worth attending for sound. If you really want to do sound for a living find somewhere you can be an assistant. That means probably a few years of phone calls and shmoosing etc till you get a call.
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Not be argumentative, but that's not the case any more. Many schools have very capable sound design programs. I came out of an audio program that gave me a leg up over people that didn't go to any school. Sure, you won't come out an oscar winning sound designer, but you'll have the know-how to at least get going on your own. Most places that have interns don't even take anyone with no experience, and many guys don't want to take on an "assistant" that doesn't know anything. The days of apprenticeship are gone. It's hard enough out there for the guys already working. I know. I've been down this road. Things have changed dramatically over the past 10 to 15 years on the way sound designers, and sound engineers in general start their careers.
 
davefisk said:
Not be argumentative, but that's not the case any more. Many schools have very capable sound design programs. I came out of an audio program that gave me a leg up over people that didn't go to any school. Sure, you won't come out an oscar winning sound designer, but you'll have the know-how to at least get going on your own. Most places that have interns don't even take anyone with no experience, and many guys don't want to take on an "assistant" that doesn't know anything. The days of apprenticeship are gone. It's hard enough out there for the guys already working. I know. I've been down this road. Things have changed dramatically over the past 10 to 15 years on the way sound designers, and sound engineers in general start their careers.
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Are you implying I'm dated? ;~)

I think maybe this is more true now, depending on a few things like location. Maybe. But I have yet to find a school that has a good film sound program, or a student who came out knowing what they should about film sound. There are however a ton of schools charging a pile of dough to teach film and media and a lot of those "teach" sound, badly.

Internships don't exist in union facilities as far as I know, at least up here it was not the case. You can get on non union shows though. Again a lot depends on where you are. LA is not SF and neither are (name some small city). So what you can do is very location dependent. Apprenticeships were gone long before I got into films.

If you no ziltch about film then a good basic filmmaking class could be helpful, maybe. If you can get classes at a university with a real film program you can probably find some good classes.

I'm not going to name names but I have been pretty shocked at the bad information that has been "taught" at some well thought of places.

So if your right then there are a few gotchas in the whole school thing. First off general practice in most I have seen (admittedly that would be a bit less than ten schools that I know well) is very video and guerilla filmmaking oriented. If your goal is to make a living in film you really should be training for big budget features because the indi world is pretty hand to mouth and doesn't hire all that many people. A lot of books are fairly similar in this respect.

Some things have changed, you probably won't have to deal with 35mm anything, but the basics are the same.

Your right in that nobody wants to hire an assistant that doesn't know anything. But what they need to know isn't often taught in schools.
Some basics that are consistently not taught and are VERY important to getting an assistant job.

What an LFOA is.
Anything about change notes, how to read and check them, etc.
Time Code is often barely covered, though it's not as big a deal as it once was with tape and such.
What a two pop is and where it goes.
Any basic electronics and signal routing. Your not going to be soldering anything (probably) but your likely to be doing a fair amount of setting things up.
Related to above, cable types and what they are for (like the difference between 50 Ohm and 75 Ohm coax).
Media management and backup.
What Q sheets are and how to make them. This is something that is pretty facility specific but you should know how to do the basics. A lot of places may have gone to just using a session window but a lot of mixers prefer Q sheets and you will be the person who has to make them.

The above is what I would be looking for in an assistant. Some you can get on the job but you really should show up with most of it.

Not a requirement but a big plus for knowing your way around Excel, Word and ability to do at least basic work in FileMaker.

The big plus for schools is the people you meet and the connections you make. 90% of your future jobs are going to be through connections and the sooner you start building them the better. I'm not down on schools in general I just don't think it's going to give you a lot of what you need to do film sound, unless you get really lucky. And I don't think it counts for much getting a job (in film sound) unless you get a recommendation from someone that your prospective boss knows.

School doesn't count as "experience". It's possible that some films you work on in school will count as experience. Most small films don't count as experience because you won't have done any of the things you need to know how to do on a big film. The workflow is very different and the roles are often very different.

If your aiming more at media rather than film I think the picture changes a lot and school is probably a whole lot more important.
 
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I agree 100% with Noiz. In Belgium (you know, that country without a government, and with the best beer :-p) there are maybe 2 or 3 filmschools which teach good sound (also technicaly). But others only teach 99% editing, camera, directing and 1% sound.

A few times when I did sound for someone from another school, I had to explain how they had to handle the clapboard.... How they had to sync the sound.... They also were surprised how "difficult" doing sound on set is.

And most things I learn (not learnED but still learn because even if you're 580448606046848604684 centuries old, you still learn) just by doing things.
 
There's a very good program here in LA (Pasadena) at the Art Center College of Design. Intro to Post Production Sound. It does NOT cover many things on your list Noiz2 (like change notes and the like) I'm sure that many of those things would be considered more advanced. It does focus on learning basic pro Tools (recording, editing, routing and general mixing). You also spend a lot of time recording Foley and preparing your session ahead of time. Recording Sound Effects - that's right, capturing your own sound effects before reaching for the SFX library. Getting good levels, naming and storing these sounds so over time you're building your own library. Recording ADR and mic placement (based on production audio techniques). EQ principals - based on carving room for dialog. Stem recording and the proper use of limiter plug-ins.

They also stress and require working in small groups because collaboration is becoming a lost art. Also keeping proper notes and always naming tracks correctly.
This is a 14 week program (3 hour class). I should mention that quite a bit of time is devoted to listening to various TV shows, FIlms and Short movies and dissecting them (in many lesson it's trying to recreate them). The instructor really helps impart the language of sound.
 
Noiz2,

I must have gotten lucky in the school I went to. We didn't learn about cue sheets and the "studio specific" stuff, but all the other basics you mentioned were hammered into us like you wouldn't believe. I think, in terms of going to school, a prospective student really needs to do their homework when choosing a school. I know the place I interned at, Danetracks, which is a union house in West Hollywood, does take interns, and I know other studios in L.A. do. If it's something someone is serious about, then they need to make the move. I went from Chicago to L.A. in order to get into sound design because that's where it's all done. If you are serious about sound design, and aren't willing to go to where the jobs are, then you aren't really serious about sound design. I started my internship in 2001, and at that time, they pretty much took anybody, and those of us that actually knew what we were doing in pro tools were actually working on stuff (we should have been paid, if you ask me).

It's a catch-22, really. Like you said, you don't really come out of college with real experience, but places that are taking interns want those interns to have experience. It's such a tough nut to crack, and takes YEARS of networking. I took what I learned from college and then Danetracks, and then with my knowledge of production sound from my time at Coffey Sound, I purchased my own pro tools LE system and started freelancing, working my way up from indy shorts to full on features and network television, and then eventually video games. Of course, now I'm out of that scene since I don't like the instability of work. I'm the main bread winner in my family, and I can't go through long spats of not having work.

But anyway, this is getting away from the main topic.

I think this is a great learning opportunity for the main poster, if they have access to a capable DAW (Pro Tools, Nuendo) to really experiment. I learned most my just trying different things and seeing what worked and what didn't. Even the best sound designers out there (Randy Thom, Charles Maynes, Dane Davis) will tell you experimentation, and just plain old messing around, is part of the craft. I can't tell you how many times I thought "Hmmm...I wonder what'll happen if I take this completely unrelated sound to what I'm working on can actually work for what I'm doing?". I've used baby cries as elements of ghost sounds, lion growls to help make car engines sound angrier...the list goes on and on. That the fun part of the job.
 
Talk about derailing the original topic! Hahaha.

What DAW do you use? It depends what you feel is wrong with the sound. Does it sound too close? Use a high pass filter and pull off a bit of the low end. Having too much low is typically caused by having the microphone too close to the subject which causes the proximity effect (enhanced bass frequency) and makes things sound too close, like internal dialog, or someone talking just so the next person can hear them and no one else.

If it sounds too much like it doesn't exist in the scene, I add reverb. AND VERY LITTLE. I use altiverb, but most DAW programs have reverb plugins built in. I usually use maybe 2 to 5% on dialog at max, and try a bunch of the presets till I get the sound I want. The idea is to make the audience believe the sound is in the basement, but without actual basement sound (which is generally WAY too verby). I tweak the mix level of the wet until it sounds balanced to me, and most of all, CLEAR. You do not want the reverb making the sound muddy which is what happens when you put too much, as it smears it all out.

And I agree, the science is in experimenting :) It's the best way to learn.
 
gpforet said:
Let's not forget the obligatory whale sounds...
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Ha! That's right.

You know, I'm usually pretty open with what sounds I use and how I use them when people ask me, but I have this one set of small recordings that only one other person in the world has, that, quite honestly, nobody but me and the other person that has them know what they are, even when people listen to it. This is the one set of sounds I keep close to the vest, and rarely pull out because it is so unique, but is SO FRIGGIN' COOL. I think having stuff like that is, meaning sounds that are unique to you...things you recorded on your own, or acquired through a friend (my situation), are really what help sound designers. It's great to have a massive commercially available SFX library, but having your own sound effects is really really helpful.
 
Dave,

Now that we have hijacked this thread ;~)

I'm impressed with your school!

I wouldn't be quite so much "you have to be in LA", but basically if your starting out and mobile LA or NYC are the two best places to be, in that order. But that is for full budget features. 10 - 20 years ago I would have said the Bay Area also but not at this time.

If your aim is games or ads or anything other than full budget features your options are broader. I also suspect that in the next 5 - 10 years we will be adding Louisiana, New Mexico, Texas and Michigan to places where you can live and work in film. All have incentives and are growing the community and given some luck will be viable places to live and work in film. The unfortunate reality for LA is that most of the reasons films had to be made there aren't a factor anymore and there are a number of very good reasons to go elsewhere. Right now this is mostly production work but I think you will see post dispersing also.

The other thing we should mention is that for feature films "Sound designer" is not probably what you should be aiming at. It's a very undefined position in film, unlike theatre, and a lot of films don't have a "designer" position. The sound supervisor is often the "designer" if there is one and editors, depending on the facility, do a lot of "design" work themselves. It's a very different story in games where pretty much everybody is called a "designer". The bread and butter with features is editing and mixing. A large show may have 20 or more editors three to six mixers (there are often mixers who are just doing premixes or are in for specialty bits) and there is, sometimes, one designer. There is also some FX recording but often, at least in North CA, it's the editors and assistants doing the majority of those recordings.

A mystique has grown up around "sound design" but the reality is that it's a term old school guys frowned upon and up to a few years ago you could not get an Oscar if you were the sound designer. Gary Rydstrom (the most Oscared sound designer) doesn't have an Oscar for design, they are all for mixing. The rules have changed and you be a designer and get the Oscar for editing now.
 
Noiz2,

Yup. Right on. Having come most recently from the video game industry, you can find a studio anywhere in the world (there is even a game studio in Siberia). After I was laid off in September from Petroglyph Games, my strongest lead was in Sweeden. Since I didn't want to move to Sweeden to only then get laid off in a few years, I passed on it. A bulk of big budget union feature post sound is done in L.A. I spent a lot of time working with all the big post houses helping them develop workflows when I was at Coffey, and got to know many of them, and now when I watch credits to a movie, I'll usually know someone on the sound crew, both production and post. Usually if it's a studio like WB, Universal, or Sony, they'll use their post crew that's on the lot. Sometimes they'll go to places like Danetracks or Soundelux. It really depends on the budget. I was at Technicolor Creative Services (the game part of technicolor) when Technicolor Sound Services (the feature guys) were working on Transformers. When it comes to TV, a lot is done in L.A., but NYC gets a ton of work too, with some other places scattered about the country. But, as you said, in the future things won't be L.A./NYC centric. Louisiana has a ton of production work done there. Michigan is actually losing production work because they just cut their film tax incentive.

I do think there is something to be said for at least getting your start in a place like L.A. or NYC. That's where the big contacts are, and those are the best places to network, at least right now. The only big downside, aside from the expense and hassle of moving to those places if you aren't close to them already, is the cost of living, which is a big hurdle for someone who is a free intern. I worked as a security guard at Delux Film lab from 3 am to noon to pay the bills, and then I would go intern from 1 until I could barely stay awake...go home..sleep a few hours..and do it again.

It's definitely extremely competative, especially in the game world. Big game studios may have several hundred employees, but only a handful of audio people. I found that during my job searches after each time I got laid off from a game studio, that for every one position open, there were at least 100 guys applying for it. I found that the same people were interviewing at all the places I was interviewing, and it can be up to a year in between gigs if you aren't on a senior level.

However, for a single person, just starting out, it's extremely exciting, and if you are good at what you do, can be very rewarding. If you are married, just make sure your spouse/partner has a job to help fill in the time when you aren't working.
 
davefisk said:
Noiz2,

Michigan is actually losing production work because they just cut their film tax incentive.
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They have lost projects but the cuts are the governors proposal, they haven't actually been approved yet. But it is looking dodgy.
 
davefisk said:
Noiz2,
However, for a single person, just starting out, it's extremely exciting, and if you are good at what you do, can be very rewarding. If you are married, just make sure your spouse/partner has a job to help fill in the time when you aren't working.
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Film work really isn't any better. Few folks are hired on a permanent basis. All the editors I ever knew were freelancers who would move to whatever film they could get on. And a LOT has to do with who knows you. Below the big studios I think there is probably more stability. Some places that do a lot of ads have people who have been there for quite awhile. They may still be contract to contract but it's fairly steady, till it isn't. This is definitely a business where you have to be OK with the roller coaster ride. I did theatre for a long time so I'm pretty used to it. It scares the crap out of my wife though!

Diversification is the key. If you can get your toe in in a few different areas that is a major plus. Theatre and film seem on opposite cycles so that can work. Ads are mostly short so if you can do that also that is great and games are another, toss in some freelance recording gigs and you might have an income!

Of course right now everything is pretty tanked, but usually those industries roller coasters are on different schedules and if you can slid into what ever is going up at the moment you can do OK.
 
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